England Riots 2011

[Dunamis]

(08-13-2011 09:10 PM)pax681 Wrote:  my police mate gave me some info about the initial shooting.
he said that the guy was a known drug dealer with firearms connections.
this isn't new really however what i didn't know was that the guy, when stopped had a converted blank firing pistol.
he then shot a policeman with it.. in the vest and thus is just knocked him over however in response he was shot.

dunno if this is the line that is being fed from the Met but that's what he has been told and i thought i'd pass it on

Dude, I'd expect you to know better than just believe a rumour. Why would he (your mate) be told anyway? Especially with an IPCC investigation going on. Plus, small problem, it didn't go into the police officers vest, it got lodged in his radio, we found that out quite early on.

Then it came out that the bullet was police issue. Let alone this "gun" you mention not actually being found on him, strange that, that a man, supposedly armed, gets shot, and then, with all the cops about is able to somehow move the gun far enough away for it to be classified as found "near" the scene, not even at the scene.

Maybe you should read the thread first dude:

Mark Duggan death: 'No evidence' Tottenham man opened fire

Recent news on this issue:

Quote:Mark Duggan death: IPCC 'may have misled journalists'
2 August 2011

The police watchdog has admitted it may have misled journalists into believing police shooting victim Mark Duggan fired at officers before he was killed.

Mr Duggan, 29, was shot by officers last Thursday in Tottenham.

His death sparked the initial riots in London which were followed by disorder in other English cities.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission later released a statement to make it clear that Mr Duggan did not fire a gun at police.

Ballistic tests found that a bullet which lodged itself in one officer's radio was police issue.


The police watchdog said there was no
evidence Mr Duggan had fired at police

It was reported by many media outlets at the time that a police officer had been shot before Mr Duggan was killed.

In other developments surrounding the riots in England:

The IPCC said in a statement on Friday: "Analysis of media coverage and queries raised on Twitter have alerted us to the possibility that we may have inadvertently given misleading information to journalists when responding to very early media queries following the shooting of Mark Duggan by Metropolitan Police Service officers on the evening of 4 August."

Police-issue bullet
It said the IPCC's first statement made no reference to shots fired at police.

But it said: "However, having reviewed the information the IPCC received and gave out during the very early hours of the unfolding incident, before any documentation had been received, it seems possible that we may have verbally led journalists to believe that shots were exchanged, as this was consistent with early information we received that an officer had been shot and taken to hospital.

"Any reference to an exchange of shots was not correct and did not feature in any of our formal statements, although an officer was taken to hospital after the incident."

Mr Duggan was a passenger in a minicab which was stopped by police near Tottenham Hale Tube station.

A non-police issue handgun, converted from a blank-firing pistol to one that shoots live rounds, was recovered close to the scene of his death.

The bullet lodged in the police radio was a "jacketed round", a police-issue bullet consistent with being fired from a Metropolitan Police Heckler and Koch MP5, the IPCC said.

An inquest into Mr Duggan's death, which opened at North London Coroner's Court in High Barnet on Tuesday, heard the father of four died from a single gunshot wound to the chest.

Mr Duggan's death sparked the riots in Tottenham, which were followed by disorder and looting in other parts of London and other English cities.

Richard Mannington Bowes, 68, was critically injured while he tried to stamp out a fire during riots in west London and later died.

Police have said four other deaths - a man found shot in a car in Croydon and three men hit by a car in Birmingham - may be linked to the recent disorder.

Home Secretary Theresa May said the high numbers of police officers on the streets will be "sustained" until further notice.

Speaking during a visit to Enfield, north London, Ms May said: "We have had some quieter nights but we are not complacent about that.

Car chase
"The police will maintain their tough arrest policy, their presence on the streets."

She said officers would be brought in from areas not affected by the riots to help maintain levels if necessary.

The number of officers patrolling the streets of London has almost trebled to 16,000 since last weekend to help tackle the violence.

Trevor Ellis, 26, of Brixton Hill, died after being found with bullet wounds in a car in Croydon, south London, on Monday night.

Initial inquiries suggested Mr Ellis and some friends were involved in an altercation with a group of about nine others. A car chase followed during which Mr Ellis was shot.

A 26-year-old man was arrested in Mitcham while a 24-year-old was arrested in Brighton and later released on bail.

Haroon Jahan, 21, Shazad Ali, 30, and Abdul Musavir, 31, were struck as they stood in a crowd on the pavement in Winson Green, Birmingham, on Tuesday night. They were protecting property at the time.

The inquests into their deaths were opened and adjourned on Friday.

Four people have so far been arrested in connection with their deaths.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14510329

[pax681]

pax681 Wrote:dunno if this is the line that is being fed from the Met but that's what he has been told and i thought i'd pass it on

as i said, was passing on what is going round the police up here bud

[Dunamis]

(08-13-2011 11:20 PM)pax681 Wrote:  

pax681 Wrote:dunno if this is the line that is being fed from the Met but that's what he has been told and i thought i'd pass it on

as i said, was passing on what is going round the police up here bud

Well, if you want to get funny about it, you actually slightly contradicted yourself, because before hand you'd said (BOLD emphasis mine)

(08-13-2011 09:10 PM)pax681 Wrote:  my police mate gave me some info...
...he said...
...this isn't new really however what i didn't know was ...

So you'd either drawn conclusions from what he had told you, thus you claim you "know", or you were in error by using the words you did.

Either way, it would have only taken 5 seconds to have found out before adding rumour to the debate. Then you could have typed what your friend had said, and been able to add, "but clearly the police are being told crap, or he's just pulling my leg" or something similar.

But then, that's just my opinion, I just prefer the leave what I hear from random people (when not back up with research) out of my research and views, but especially on such pertinent topics and issues. It's the way of the sceptics

No worries anyway man, what's done is done, and we've both learnt something, even if it's a lesson I've been in a thousand times.

[Swordfish]

Quote:hang on did he just say its not just dickheads but a societal problem

What a banal justification. And thats just another opinion anyway. No more valid than mine or yours.
btw -Everything in society is a societal problem... lets include murder, selfishness, violence and obsession with football.

And as for "opportunism" does this mean that my friend who works in a bank is justified in taking home a handful... I wonder if you use the same justification for the fat cat bankers as they also use "opportunism".

Quote:listen learn... if you think its easy go and move out there and make something of yourself

Listen learn... Where I was brought up we didnt have a bathroom until I was 9. An outside toilet and a tin bath. No TV and ALL my clothes were from relatives cast offs. Yes I did make something of myself, and never once felt the need to set fire to my local shop. Fortunately my parents didnt excuse any bad behaviour as down to our economic situation. Yes there were scumbags around, and predictably they followed the lead of their own parents.

Quote:ever thought these people are in a position where no one cares about them? like to the point of advocating shooting? you expect respect from those who have none given.

In my world respect is earned not a right. Are you seriously suggesting that shooting someone is the inevitable outcome of being not cared about? I think youve made an interesting point though. Dont their own parents/family care about them? Or is this a contributory factor (ie bad parenting) ....just like I said.

Quote:perhaps you can put the people of iraq into your all encompassing "scum" motif as once law and order broke down, EVERYONE started getting what they could

EVERYONE? rather a generalisation dont you think. Its laughable to compare people from a war torn (invaded) country with no water, social support mechanisms etc to people with access to education, cradle to grave social care etc and who feel deprived because they dont have a 32" LCD TV so feel justified in stealing one. Im sure the perp from the now well publicised "stealing from a young asians rucksack whilst purporting to help him" scenarion was totally justified because he "opportunistically" stole his wallet and phone ....maybe he was from an ipod deprived neighbourhood? ....wheres my violin to play some sad music?

Quote:they then are suggesting that in fact there is an "excuse" (I personally don't believe in excuses), and are suggesting that the youth should not be punished, but the parents set an example of, as it's "all their fault", right?]

I agree there are no excuses. In this context the parents have contributed to the problem and have to take a share of the consequences irrespective of the generational issue.

@Dunamis Im sure you had a bad upbringing based on what you said, and some overcome their upbringing. This does not detract from the well recognised issue that we learn/decide our standards and behaviours from those who have most influence over our lives. In most cases this is our parents. In the absence of parents/family, other role models decide behaviour. eg in ghetto areas the local drug dealer is looked up to as they have money.
I think Im correct that you have children and you will be well aware of the influence you can have on them for good or bad.

Just to clarify my position I am certainly not saying the parents are solely to blame, but they do need to acknowledge their significant part, and the individuals concerned need to take personal responsibility for their actions and not claim learned helpnessness. At the end of the day we are responsible for our own actions and as they say "you do the crime you do the time"

Its an interesting proposition that some will readily accept that "society" has an influence (and thus a responsibility) on people, yet will defend to the last that parents somehow dont have any responsibility for their feral offspring.
Suggest watching nanny 911/supernanny or similar to see if my proposition has any substance...

[FastTadpole]

   
The Illuminati Card Game has a card for just about everything don't they?

[IanPotter]

Collective punishment,
without due process of law,
imposed selectively on council house tenants

There's three (successful) legal challenges right there.

Ker-ching! Ker-ching! Ker-ching!

And of course local councils CONTINUE to have a LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY to provide shelter for those made homeless unintentionally.

Ker-ching!

Hence, the council will be forced to house these people in B&Bs or in housing association property (ie often former council houses "sold" into the private sector for as little as £1 a piece, or built using generous taxpayer subsidy).

Ker-ching!

Thus, the money the council pays via the welfare state to re-house the mother of some feral helion will go into the private sector parasite class, rather than returning to the council.

Ker-ching!

To point out these things is not to 'condone looting' - and yet that's exactly what someone accused me of earlier today.

I didn't fight back (beyond denial) because I knew it was a 'programmed response' that would be time-consuming to redress, but it's rather sad to find it here too.

[IanPotter]

News just in:

Financial Times headline says government is to withdraw benefits (hand-outs) to rioters.

Can't link to the selfish FT rag but it'll be all over tomorrow anyway as the gutter press (ie all of it), will probably have a field day working the sheep up into a frenzied lather.

Great idea eh? Boost a dying economy with a run on window glass, home security devices and replacement mortice locks.

What a good thing we're unarmed and defenseless - and those police cuts happened in the nick of time. All coincidence I'm sure.

You wanna catch the looters? Look up, not sideways.

Everything stems from there. Everything else is distraction.

[rsol]

Quote:This does not detract from the well recognised issue that we learn/decide our standards and behaviours from those who have most influence over our lives.

your sentence but that's what id say too. some of us don't have influences in stable conditions. some of us in the world start out with limited chances. take that down a few generations. some get out. some get trapped. some cant take it any more. the looting is a secondary to why all this happened. compounding the problem means they have even more excuses to nail us all down.

you attitude is all about vengeance and punishment. set an example yeah? guess what? why would that be anything different than before? the prisons are so full that they are working out ways to keep people out. have you any clue how much it costs to house 1 person for a year?

the reason they are so pissed is because they feel the shit first and will get the relief last. thats quite a fucking major influence. minimum wage is fucking pathetic. in that part of the world you can just about survive working 7 days a week.

[crystal]

This story has been passed around so much Im sure this particular lady will get shelter somehow. I hope they do.
There are many that wont. The whole thing has been orchestrated to create more negative feelings, fear, and crime.
The victim mentality catogorisation of these people who live in these areas arent going to help either. I may add that unlike the US, London is not as segregated as there. There are many dfferent people, students, workers of all races who got caught up in these last few days trouble.
It only takes some masked proveceturs and some sheep to get a 'riot' started.

[Swordfish]

Quote:you attitude is all about vengeance and punishment.

Well you are correct on the punishment bit. Punishment is a consequence and that is what seems to be missing in terms of any behavioural change.
We could of course reward them as a consequence but I dont somehow think that would work. (remember the foreign holidays and free ipods for scumbags debacle a few years ago)

The reason I go to work is because if I dont I dont get paid. Thats a consequence. That stops me bunking off. Simple no?

Not vengeance in my case as Im not directly affected. Just pure logic. No consequence, no need to change. Lets compare this to the bankers, no consequence for selling us down the river so the circus just rolls on...

You have to start somewhere. If you go on the basis that its society to blame then we might as well open all the prisons up and allow them to use the same excuse.
Personal responsibility for what we do is crucial to any solution.

Re legal challenges, thats why parliament is involved as this may mean that the law is changed to accomodate this. Like any other benefit, there can be restrictions or compliance clauses (eg no benefits when in prison, or when you are caught misclaiming. If you trash your council house or use it for drug dealing you will get thrown out).

[Dunamis]

(08-15-2011 09:36 AM)Swordfish Wrote:  You have to start somewhere. If you go on the basis that its society to blame then we might as well open all the prisons up and allow them to use the same excuse.
Personal responsibility for what we do is crucial to any solution.

Re legal challenges, thats why parliament is involved as this may mean that the law is changed to accomodate this. Like any other benefit, there can be restrictions or compliance clauses (eg no benefits when in prison, or when you are caught misclaiming. If you trash your council house or use it for drug dealing you will get thrown out).

Sadly a lot of it is actually to do with a knowledge of, or lack of knowledge, (and these are the things that Parliament may change,I am sure the Law will remain the same), Acts, Statutes and By-laws. Maybe the issue with getting your own way "legally" or at least getting away with it, is all down to Education. But then, comparing a wide cross section of youth from England to international banksters is a little odd.

Punishment clearly does not work. Have you not seen the UK for the past decade by punishing youth for their "Anti Social Behaviour" (whatever that really means)? It has cost a lot, that's for sure, what else is certain is I have seen many teens go from bad to worse as a result of ASBO's, especially if they are put on the "tag" scheme, because they are "branded" by the State as Anti-Social then, and it becomes for many a self fulfilling judgement.

I know it makes sense that everything "need to be paid for", and if not beforehand or on agreed credit, then through punishment. The simple fact remains though that it actually does not work.

In this specific situation (The England riots, don't know why they all started calling it UK riots, even I began to), to chastise many youth for simply responding when ignored, in the only way they knew how, the only way they have been taught time and time again, by a society that taught their parents and a government that uses force in precisely the same way, to intimidate, get their way, and gain assets, just seems a little...backwards.

It is simply the serpent devouring it's own tail (chaos), playing out between Big Brother and "his" younger siblings, no?

[TriWooOx]

Quote:Police say they prevented attacks by rioters on the Olympic site and London's Oxford Street after picking up intelligence on social networks.

Assistant Met Police Commissioner Lynne Owens told a committee of MPs officers learned of possible trouble via Twitter and Blackberry messenger.

But Acting Commissioner Tim Godwin said he had considered asking authorities to switch off social networks.

He said they provided intelligence but could also be misleading.

A number of politicians, media commentators and members of the police force have suggested that Twitter and Blackberry Messenger (BBM) had a role to play in the riots.

The BBM system is popular among many young people because it is both private and secure - users are invited to join each other's contacts list using a unique PIN, although once they have done so, messages can be distributed to large groups.
Switch off request

Ms Owens said officers had been attempting to sift through an "overwhelming" amount of "chitter chatter" on social networks during last week's riots in London, but some had proved vital.

"Through Twitter and BBM there was intelligence that the Olympic site, that both Westfields [shopping centres] and Oxford Street were indeed going to be targeted," she told the home affairs select committee.

"We were able to secure all those places and indeed there was no damage at any of them."

Mr Godwin said that on Monday, when disorder spread to 22 of London's 32 boroughs, police were receiving a new piece of intelligence every second.

And while much of the information coming via social media "was obviously wrong and rather silly", he said police did considered trying to shut the networks down in order to prevent them being used to organise further violence.

"We did contemplate, I contemplated, asking the authorities to switch it off. The legality of that is very questionable and additionally, it is also a very useful intelligence asset," he said.

"So, as a result of that, we did not request that that was turned off, but it is something that we are pursuing as part of our investigative strategy."

Blackberry has offered to co-operate with police investigating the riots - prompting attacks by hackers angry that the company could be prepared to hand over user data to authorities.

Asked what Blackberry's co-operation would involve, Mr Godwin asked to "plead the fifth", adding: "I would rather not answer that question as it is an investigative strategy."
'Seamless working'

Sir Hugh Orde, president of the Association of Chief Police Officers, which played a key role in coordinating the Met's response, said the riots were "fundamentally different" from the sort of disorder he and the rest of the police force had ever dealt with before.

He told the committee the violence was "multi-site" and "far more spontaneous", and there was almost "non-existent pre-intelligence" which could have helped police manage things differently.

Sir Hugh also defended the way police resources were managed, insisting there was "a pretty seamless working of the system" which was able to meet all the requests made for additional resources.

The senior officers were asked about an apparent spat which broke out between the police and senior ministers over who was responsible for bringing about the surge in officer numbers which returned calm to London.

Mr Godwin insisted that the prime minister and home secretary had been "very supportive" and any differences between them were "overplayed".

"Sometimes the perception of us at loggerheads is not helpful," he added.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14542588

[Swordfish]

Quote:But then, comparing a wide cross section of youth from England to international banksters is a little odd.

My comparison was in the context of when there is no consequence when you do something you have no incentive to stop doing it. Elites have been getting away with things for years because they see only positive consequences (for themselves). Margaret Thatcher soon made a u turn on poll tax when the population decided they had had enough.

Im hearing nothing on this thread about what CAN be done to stop these idiots (who are not limited to working class), and this is not about working class being downtrodden.
The common theme is that they have been brought up to think the world owes them a living and an expectation of instant gratification. ie I shouldnt have to work to get anything I should have it by right, and now. And that is not limited to ANY social class.
It is not economics that produces this effect. It is lack of values and lack of respect for anyone who isnt them.

You make some good points Dunamis but I have to disagree that punishment doesnt work. The types you mention are ineffective (I would make the point that if you have asbos and are tagged you have already achieved the branding of social reject at your own request).
Other forms of punishment (or lets widen it to consequences) can be very effective.
Whilst I do not support this particular punishment, there is very little theft in saudi arabia unless you dont want to keep your hands.
The threat of punishment stops many of us going astray.
Zero tolerance as practiced in some American cities does have positive effects and by giving a short sharp consequence for small misdemeanours, this helps prevent escalation.
The threat of being shamed in public has the same effect as anonymity enables people to do things they wouldnt under normal social conventions (how many people watch porn on the computer but would never dream of going into a sex shop to buy some).
This is a theme which has been picked up by Nick Clegg suggesting that offenders (in the riots) should be put to clearing up their mess and having to face the people they abused.

Taking away privileges has also been used for hundreds of years, its used to gain compliance in prisons and in the armed forces as well as schools etc etc

Quote:to chastise many youth for simply responding when ignored, in the only way they knew how, the only way they have been taught time and time again, by a society that taught their parents and a government that uses force in precisely the same way, to intimidate, get their way, and gain assets, just seems a little...backwards.

Maybe it does seem backwards but many years of liberal thinking, putting the blame on society, the economy, the government etc and nil retribution has unfortunately escalated the problem to the current state of affairs where more meaningful action is perhaps needed..

[TriWooOx]

Quote:Two men have been jailed for four years for using Facebook to incite disorder.

Jordan Blackshaw, 20, from Marston near Northwich, and Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan, 22, from Warrington, appeared at Chester crown court on Tuesday. They were arrested last week following incidents of violent disorder in London and other cities across the UK.

Neither of their Facebook posts resulted in a riot-related event.

During the sentencing, the recorder of Chester, Elgin Edwards, praised the swift actions of Cheshire police and said he hoped the sentences would act as a deterrent to others.

Assistant Chief Constable Phil Thompson said: "If we cast our minds back just a few days to last week and recall the way in which technology was used to spread incitement and bring people together to commit acts of criminality, it is easy to understand the four year sentences that were handed down in court today.

"In Cheshire, we quickly recognised the impact of the situation on our communities and the way in which social media was being used to promote and incite behaviour that would strike fear in to the hearts of our communities.

"From the offset, Cheshire constabulary adopted a robust policing approach using the information coming into the organisation to move quickly and effectively against any person whose behaviour was likely to encourage criminality. Officers took swift action against those people who have been using Facebook and other social media sites to incite disorder.

"The sentences passed down today recognise how technology can be abused to incite criminal activity, and send a strong message to potential troublemakers about the extent to which ordinary people value safety and order in their lives and their communities. Anyone who seeks to undermine that will face the full force of the law."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/16...CMP=twt_fd

[sekular]

Four years of their lives stolen by a corrupt state and greedy police.