Patriot Act signed by autopen --> Valid? Legal??

[solar]

Is An Autopen Signature Valid on a Bill?

Commentary by Karl Denninger for the Market Ticker forum, May 27, 2011.

Excerpt of commentary below, complete commentary and forum member response at this link.

[beginning of commentary excerpt --]

Good question - Obama, instead of flying back to the US to sign the Patriot Act extension, used an "autopen" (basically a robot that holds a pen and reproduces his signature) to sign the bill.

What does The Constitution say?

"Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a Law, be presented to the President of the United States; If he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his Objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the Objections at large on their Journal, and proceed to reconsider it."

Ok, so we have two separate questions:

Was the bill as engrossed and passed presented to the President? Can such be done virtually (e.g. by email?) or does it have to be done physically? The requirement is present so that the President affixes a signature to the actual words presented to him. How do we know the same document was "presented" and "signed" if it was done electronically?

Was the bill signed through the use of an autopen? That is, does a signature have to be personally-affixed on a bill to be valid?

[end of commentary excerpt, complete commentary and forum member response at this link]

[Mike_Smith]

I've had pay cheques signed by a rubber stamp and that was legal enough for me to cash the cheque.

I don't think legally this is much of a matter. Im no legal wiz for sure, but I think it boils down to his approval and his intent.

[edit] Of course this raises another question tho... did Diebold the infamous e-vote machine maker also design the autopen? LOL

[evelynB]

For me, it is valid and legal. Certain provisions of the contentious Patriot Act have been renewed by Obama. The bill, however, would typically have gone to his desk and not his fax line. The president used an autopen to approve the bill, a system which can correctly reproduce a signature. President renews Patriot Act from Europe by using a robotic autopen, newstype.com. It is virtually impossible to tell the difference between a genuine signature and an autosignature. The machines, according to MSNBC, vary in complexity from simply tracing a template to far more mechanically complex machines. Autopens are frequently used by government officials, astronauts and business executives so, I think, there's nothing wrong with it.

[yeti]

(06-01-2011 06:50 AM)evelynB Wrote:  Autopens are frequently used by government officials, astronauts and business executives so, I think, there's nothing wrong with it.

Except that the people of the United States did not elect a machine, they elected a human, and expect that human to do his job. Clearly using an Autopen to sign legislation is unethical and immoral... and if it isn't illegal, it ought to be.

[Telecaster72]

Legal or not, it is the ACT of signing such a controversial bill with an automatic robot-pen that bugs me. This very symbolic bill has a huge effect on the american society, and the rest of the world by the ripple effect and should at least be signed by the man (clone ? ) himself and not a robot. That is just showing blatant contempt against the citizens, but it is not surprising at all and it shows what the president are really there for (not just Obama but any "elected leader") ,a symbol that we can relay to, an illusion of a person with power, elected by the people.
When in reality his job can be done by a robot, even the robot is not necessary.
But i guess people have to have something representing the otherwise anonymous power exercised over them, a cool and nifty robot-pen might even convince some of how technically advanced the nation is.

A couple of sound clips on the subject from the NoAgenda Show

May 26 Show
From the 10 (ten) minutes of debate in congress before the bill was passed:

reid rand paul1.mp3

reid rand paul2.mp3

Ron paul Last Nail.mp3

May 29 Show
Auto-pen machine.mp3

I am not a "Ron Paul guy", but at least he said something...