Does 9/11 really matter?

[Bind]

The whole system does not have to go.

Thats like blaming car manufacturers for highway death tolls or blaming gun manufacturers for murders where guns are used.

The system is the best in the world - heck, its been the defacto standard for freedom and has spurred revolution and freedom worldwide in civilized nations.

The problem is with the citizens apathy and disinterest in the system who have stopped watching and never putting their representatives to task for their decissions and legislation that do not represent the will of their constituents.

For whatever reason(s), it happened, the people stopped looking and have become disinterested in the system. Until they wake up, get interested, and demand change, it wont change.

[Infinite]

(04-05-2011 12:02 PM)Bind Wrote:  The whole system does not have to go.

Thats like blaming car manufacturers for highway death tolls or blaming gun manufacturers for murders where guns are used.

The system is the best in the world - heck, its been the defacto standard for freedom and has spurred revolution and freedom worldwide in civilized nations.

The problem is with the citizens apathy and disinterest in the system who have stopped watching and never putting their representatives to task for their decissions and legislation that do not represent the will of their constituents.

For whatever reason(s), it happened, the people stopped looking and have become disinterested in the system. Until they wake up, get interested, and demand change, it wont change.

The system of hierchial top-down authoritarian governments. For one to be one's president or governor or whatever is them bitching you out and putting you in a subservient role. Then of course loss of freedom naturally follows.

In my opinion tyranny is just what comes to governments naturally. They are the governors and we are the governed. The way that it's set up is just designed for it.

[yeti]

(05-12-2011 02:45 AM)Infinite Wrote:  In my opinion tyranny is just what comes to governments naturally. They are the governors and we are the governed.

If ConCen was a government, would your description be accurate? Choose your words carefully, peon.

[Bind]

(05-12-2011 02:45 AM)Infinite Wrote:  The system of hierchial top-down authoritarian governments. For one to be one's president or governor or whatever is them bitching you out and putting you in a subservient role. Then of course loss of freedom naturally follows.

In my opinion tyranny is just what comes to governments naturally. They are the governors and we are the governed. The way that it's set up is just designed for it.

With all due respect, then you have absolutely no idea what the constitutional foundation of our government is.

The constitution gives the power to THE PEOPLE. It limits government.

The system is the constitution, not those who bastardize it for a stranglehold on money, influence, and power.

This comes with not only the ability, but also the RESPONSIBILITY to be active in protecting it, their freedom, and their liberties.

The problem is the people, not the system. The people have become apathetic and disinterested in their own government, allowing those with an interest to take over and bastardize what the constitution stands for.

It only happened because the people allowed it to happen through aparthy, disinterest, complacency.

I agree the tyranny did ocurr naturally. Thats the evil in Man. They want weath, influence, and power. The Alpha Syntrome.

... but that would have never ocurred if the citizens were vigilant to their responsibilities.

Its akin to a high school bully. You do nothing about him and he continues on and gets worse. You punch him in the nose or kick him in the balls, he moves on.

Dont like it? Then get involved in the constitutional restoration. Its your ability and responsibility... and if you elect to sit on the sidelines playing monday morning quarterback without actively participating, you deserve what they let you have, in my humble opinion.

[R.R]

Quote:This is what I've observed in my 5 or so years of truth seeking. There's no way to 'wake' a lot or most people 'up' and actually the experience is often very degrading and demoralizing as these are people who mostly I have no desire to talk to and especially be insulted by. These are the type of opinions one typically encounters: http://ask.metafilter.com/86613/How-to-d...ist-friend

Simply go through the logic of their arguments, for example:

Quote:How do you deal with people like this?

You don't. People like this don't believe conspiracies because they're convinced by the evidence, they believe them because the conspiracy fulfills a psychological need they have. It's not that different from religion, and you're going to have about as much success proving that 9/11 wasn't a conspiracy as you would be proving that communion isn't the body of Christ.

This user mentions evidence as a prerequisite to believe something, yet this user doesn't state their own evidence for believing said person has a psychological need that is fulfilled by conspiracies - neither has such a position been proven by psychologists, mainly because they don't actually look at the evidence cited by 'conspiracy theorists' to see if there is a logical or rational basis for believing something irrespective of it's popularity. With this in mind we could very easily say that debunkers of conspiracy do so in order to also fulfill a psychological need that they have. There is no distinction. The same could be said about associating it with religion, which also displays this particular users' logic. The user probably has a high opinion of the scientific method, or thinks they do, but rather actually use said method, they are more inclined to take onboard the opinions laid out to them by 'experts' while maintaining the ongoing 'battle' between religion and science. Irrespective of the truth value of what this user believes, this shows that the user has a disdain for religion and a high regard for mainstream science which will clearly sway their opinion in the direction of what they have already pre-chosen to believe as authority. This person has thus decided that they are already affiliated with what they regard as 'truth' and any opposition or argument that questions this notion, such as conspiracy or religion, is seen as a threat to the cognitive function of the user which manifests as arguments that reaffirm their own position. A simple look at the evidence is enough to at least reasonably ask for a further investigation, to address the anomolies of 9-11 if nothing else. This person repeats the same mistakes of the religious of prior eras in that they have accepted authority figures as opposed to actual evidence as truth, although the religious had the excuse of not being able to read so they could never verify what was written in their holy books and had to take as gospel the interpretations offered to them by authority figures within society. This user then, masks their own foolishness by trying to place themselves in a role opposite of the very people that they have chosen do not represent their ideological selves and by doing so, exposes themselves as being no better judge precisely because the scientific method demands analysis of evidence, not repeating the claims of authority figures. The user has not shown any ability to get away from the same dirty tricks that have been used for centuries to sway the minds of the public.

Quote:I have always told people with whom I am in contact that have the same opinion regarding 9/11/01 as your friend's two things. First, Rationally, based on experience, there is no way our government is capable of pulling off such an elaborate detailed sophisticated conspiracy without screwing it up. There is no way our government could keep a secret. We are just too incompetent to pull it off. George Bush and his crew have proven in the 6.5 years since that no amount of desire to do something like this could be overcome by sheer stupidity and incompetence.

This user should 'rationally' ask themselves if the criteria for keeping a secret has been fulfilled. 9-11 conspiracy theories are routinely 'debated' every year on major news channels, documentaries have been made about them appearing on mainstream TV and almost everyone around the world is familiar with the concept of 9-11 being an inside job or a conspiracy different to the official narrative. If then, hypothetically, we say 'George Bush and his crew' were the culprits and the conspiracy could only occur if it WASN'T kept a secret, we must ask by what criteria then is the conspiracy not fulfilled? This user has stated 'there is no way our government could keep a secret' and, irrespective of whether that is true or not, we can only repeat have they actually kept it a secret? So this user, without even realising it, has had their conditions fulfilled and still gives no credence to questioning 9-11. These are the illogical tendancies of 'debunkers' who also have no idea of counter-intelligence, disinformation, propaganda or plausible deniabilty that can be employed to hide the true perpetrators or the PREDICTIONS made by the likes of Bill Cooper or Alex Jones of an imminent attack on the twin-towers to be blamed on Osama bin Laden. What it does show in this comment is the user is unwilling to entertain the idea that Bush and his cronies in cultivating a stupid public image could never dupe this intelligent person. So we can add ego damage to cognitive dissonance and naivete.

Quote:I don't believe the conspiracies, but I wonder why you find her gullible when she has actually done extensive research and you haven't. If you look at it completely objectively, who would you find ignorant: someone who has done hundreds of hours of research or someone who hasn't done any research but has deep convictions? Who would you find gullible: someone who has come to a conclusion based on on conducting hundreds of hours of research or someone who holds an opinion based on mainstream thought? Now, all this isn't to say that she's not gullible and doesn't have psychological issues, because I think people like this do. (Disclaimer: I haven't done hundreds of hours of research on psychological disorders, so this is based on pop psychology that I am pulling directly from my ass.) But you should agree to disagree because you both are experiencing cognitive dissonance and neither of you will ever change your opinion.

That is actually a very fair and rational comment.

Reading the rest of it is an example of why 'conspiracies' can occur. These people give off the impression that they are smart, objective and whatever else but again go through zero attempts at anything to gather 'truth' rather they swallow every theory as if they are believed by everyone and then point the absurdities when they probably couldn't find one person who has incorporated all the various theories into one whole argument. Which is somewhat ironic in that they hold academic investigation in high regard but regard the various theories as evidence of general stupidity when in fact they conform more to counter-intelligence operations, which also takes the predictability of those who aren't doing any real investigation into account when creating cointel in order to detract newcomers adding their voice to potentially damaging events such as 9-11.

Case in point:

Quote:In talking to conspiracy theorists, try not to get caught up in a discussion of the 'evidence', which they will probably know better than you and will use to knock you down ('how do you explain X? .. how do you explain Y?'). Instead, try to focus on the chain of reasoning, and you will almost always find a point where one improbability is used to explain another improbability ('But why didn't the media expose the conspiracy?' 'Oh, they were in on it too.'). Then politely point out that this weakens the argument rather than strengthening it.

Then again accusing them of being victims of counter-intelligence is actually flattering them based on this nonsense.

[Infinite]

(05-12-2011 04:53 AM)yeti Wrote:  

(05-12-2011 02:45 AM)Infinite Wrote:  In my opinion tyranny is just what comes to governments naturally. They are the governors and we are the governed.

If ConCen was a government, would your description be accurate? Choose your words carefully, peon.

ConCen is not the same as a government because I can choose to participate in it or not. There are administrators but they're administrators of a voluntary enterprise, no one is forcing me to participate unlike taxes and the like. Peon, really? You love the government enough to insult me in defense of it? That's telling. Good luck with getting your 'elected representatives' to bring us justice, I'll keep dealing with reality.

---

(05-12-2011 08:57 AM)Bind Wrote:  

(05-12-2011 02:45 AM)Infinite Wrote:  The system of hierchial top-down authoritarian governments. For one to be one's president or governor or whatever is them bitching you out and putting you in a subservient role. Then of course loss of freedom naturally follows.

In my opinion tyranny is just what comes to governments naturally. They are the governors and we are the governed. The way that it's set up is just designed for it.

With all due respect, then you have absolutely no idea what the constitutional foundation of our government is.

The constitution gives the power to THE PEOPLE. It limits government.

The system is the constitution, not those who bastardize it for a stranglehold on money, influence, and power.

You and others who believe as you do should really read the unpublicized history of the elitist nature of the so-called founding fathers of America. Here are quotes from some of the founders that reveal this character:

Roger Sherman: "The people immediately should have as little to do as may be about the government."

Elbridge Gerry: "The evils from which the country suffer are due mainly to excess of democracy."

Edmund Randolph deplored the turbulence and follies of democracy.

John Dickenson believed that a limited monarchy was "one of the best forms of government in the world."

Alexander Hamilton wanted the chief executive to have a "royal title" and to be elected for life.

http://www.theexaminer.org/volume3/number6/church.htm

Some of the other framers of the constitution disagreed with this view and were more for popular representation of government but ALL were of opulence and the laborers who made up the masses of people in America at the time were NOT part of the debate or the decisions made. At the time there were quotas for how much property one had to own in order to be eligable to run for office. We don't have such formal requirements imposed now but the same requirements of wealth exist obviously as you never see someone who's not rich run and win a significant office in government. And there was slavery at the time as well. So not only is the constitution and the American government not something that we have ever had a say in today, it actually began that way and was arguably WORSE when it started not better.

[Bind]

You are not stating the problems with our constitution.

You are stating the problems with PEOPLE.

The constitution absolutely was created by elitists with an agenda, but they gave the people the power. They gave us an out. They gave us the tools necessary to rule ourselves. These tools stil lexist this day. The problems is US. The complacent, apathetic, misguided, manipulated, disinterested people.

Benjamin Franklin said it all at the close of the constitutional convention when he was asked, "What have you wrought?"

Ben said, "A republic ... if you can keep it".

He, and many others, were well aware of the apathy, political disinterest, and complacency that resides in Man. They knew people just want to prosper, live their lives. and grow their families. And they were absolutely correct.

We DO have a say. We DO have the power. We just have to be responsible and exercise it.

If 90 million legal patriotic gun owners stood up in unison and said, "Stop it now! Get out of our government!", they would run like cowards.

It only took 3% of our population to successfully defend America against tyranny and oppression.

I am in total agreement that there is a campaign of indoctrination, manipulation, propaganda, and even a lagrge amount amount of insidious influence and nefarious illegal activities that ocurrs to change hearts and minds and to advance agendas, but that does not change the facts that we are the cause of our own destruction. IT begins and ends with us - The bucks stops here - with The People.

[Negentropic]

9/11 matters for sure but even more than the fact that most 9/11 half-truthers have known for at least 8 years now that it was an 'inside' or 'outside' job or combination of both thereof and the official fable is an outrageous pile of lies, what matters is how it was done to nail it shut once-&-for-all, since quite a lot of people still seem to believe that planes were involved, that the videos they saw hundreds of times were real and that 3000-plus people actually died, trauma-programmed assumptions which have not stood up to scrutiny or been backed up by hard evidence.

It must matter or why would 85% of the 9/11 half-truth movement do everything in its power to gatekeep No-Planers & 70% Judy Wood Direct Energy Weapons theory? Since Ventura mentioned his admiration for Judy Wood on AJ's redneck roundtable her "Where did the Towers Go ? " book has rocketed up from number 200,000 in sales rank to # 3400 sales rank on Amazon, and this, despite being a 40 dollar book. AJ hates Wood and all other No-Planers but was not about to get into an argument with Ventura, one of his star guests, in fact, damn near the last of his interesting guests since he hardly ever has anyone cutting edge on anymore lest his advertisers get mad & his analyses are regressing backwards by the day as others not afraid of somewhat larger slices of the buttnaked truth carry the torch forward.




"There are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, and the third is useless." Machiavelli - The Prince

"As political and economic freedom diminishes, sexual freedom tends to compensatingly increase and the dictator will do well to encourage that freedom in conjunction with the freedom to daydream under the influence of dope, movies and radio. It will help to reconcile his subjects to their servitude." Julian Huxley - Preface to Brave New World

[JazzRoc]

"9-11" matters.
But no more than "chemtrails", "fluoride", "alternative medicine", and "religion" matter.

Each of these is a visible marker of a SOCIAL FAILURE in EDUCATION.

REAL education begins before birth in the WOMB, which HAS to be a happy place in a healthy, well-adjusted body with a relaxed mind free of worries, for the BEST nurturing to take place, and for that body to be living in a FULLY-EXTENDED FAMILY. This allows ALL the socializing assets, that our evolutionary experience has "programmed in" to our specially-enlarged brains, to FLOURISH, both in the mother and the child.
REAL education begins with SCIENCE and the laws of NATURE. The discovering of how you came to exist, WHAT you are and how you are equipped, the nature of the Earth, and the nature of human civilization (myth, religion, and other lies being a subset here), the nature of the society you're in, and the natural civic responsibilities that ensue from it.
REAL education never stops.

That's my idealization, of course.

Did you receive ALL of that, and in that order? I didn't. I doubt whether very many have. (I was born in the last terrible phase of WW2 and grew up poor in a war-shattered economy. The schools I went to were spartan, but the teaching was relatively good - except it was WAY behind the times and always had a religious element. Extended families are very rare in the UK for historical reasons, so like many others I was relatively isolated and lonely, as my parents moved every eighteen months to where the work was.)

No. Instead we emerge as adults with brains partly-damaged by insufficiently-rich nurturing and environment, and disinformed by the above, most of the media, religion and other crank activities, governments, even parents, with MOST OF US insufficiently-aware of the NATURE OF REALITY. About 85% of us literally do not know where we're coming from.

We are raising ourselves out of previous times that were much worse (if longevity be the judge), and are all scarred by our history, so recrimination isn't useful. Dealing with the here and now IS. For that you need both the means to interpret evidence and the evidence itself. You need the first to FIND the second, and if you don't have this means you may find anything.

Physical evidence and reasoned logic (science) is useful because we live in a PHYSICAL world. There is no PHYSICAL reason to suppose that ANYTHING exists outside of it. All so-called "non-physical" manifestations are to be found physically as electrochemical activity WITHIN human brains, and nowhere else. They are MEMES.

All the above repulsive MEMES ("9-11", "chemtrails", "fluoride", "alternative medicine", "religion") use FEAR OF DEATH as their motivating force. For THAT they should be automatically suspect.

Fear banishes calm reflection and destroys rationality faster than any other emotion. It's a force which MAINTAINS ignorance, DESTROYS education, DAMAGES society, and STARTS wars.

The whole purpose of (my idealized) education is to REPLACE ignorance and fear with UNDERSTANDING AND AWARENESS. When the opposite happens, as with the above topics, society is FAILING.

"9-11" matters, all right... ...but so do all the other topics.

[rsol]

im afraid of death. thats why i eat. its hardly irrational.

fear of death is the most rational thing a living organism posesses. its quintessential to life...

your fear of looking stupid keeps you locked up jazz.

[JazzRoc]

(05-26-2011 06:37 PM)rsol Wrote:  im afraid of death. thats why i eat. its hardly irrational. fear of death is the most rational thing a living organism posesses. its quintessential to life... your fear of looking stupid keeps you locked up jazz.

Thanks for your addressing the points I raised in your own unique way. I'm sure it gives us all the insight we ever needed into your illiteracy and your sociopathology.

Here is my "jail".