Does 9/11 really matter?

[Infinite]

Is there a point in trying to educate people about 9/11 itself, or is it more beneficial to address more structural analysis type of subjects? For example there are false flag operations and provocations that are already admitted and documented in U.S. history. I just feel like it's but one small part of the bigger picture and that it's stupid to have a whole 9/11 movement at this point.

[yeti]

(03-03-2011 05:06 AM)Infinite Wrote:  Is there a point in trying to educate people about 9/11

Yes.

(03-03-2011 05:06 AM)Infinite Wrote:  is it more beneficial to address more structural analysis type of subjects?

I'm sorry, what?

(03-03-2011 05:06 AM)Infinite Wrote:  For example there are false flag operations and provocations that are already admitted and documented in U.S. history.

OK. Let's add 9/11

(03-03-2011 05:06 AM)Infinite Wrote:  I just feel like it's but one small part of the bigger picture and that it's stupid to have a whole 9/11 movement at this point.

OK. Can you forgive me for continuing to care about 9/11?

[rsol]

does history matter?

[icosaface]

One difference between 911 and other false flags is that this one was probably a multi-national operation. Another difference is that live targets were taken out inside the host country in broad daylight. The Maine was a pretend job, the gulf of Tonkin was a pretend job, Pearl harbor was an ignorance job. If you want to ignore 911 then go ahead but don't ask me to be ignorant as well.

[Infinite]

I do tell people about 9/11 from time to time but do you guys participate in the protests and the activist groups and such? Lot of hostile responses. Kind of like the same kind of responses that I get when I try to tell most people about 9/11, just different motivations for the hostility. I guess a better question to ask myself would be, should I talk to people about serious stuff at all or am I sick of getting whined at?

[icosaface]

I talk to people about 911 but I haven't attended any demonstrations, cause there haven't been any out here in redneckville. I wasn't being hostile in my first response, I was just stating my opinion. I could have worded things differently but I was trying to be clever and make a point at the same time. We program our thoughts with the languages we speak and lots of our words are defective subroutines.

[Dunamis]

Yea, I don't think anyone whinning man, just stating what they think in response. I think 9/11 does really matter, which is the actual thread title. Does it matter more than other subjects, probably not. Did more non-involved people die in that one day than any other situation in recent years? Yes. Does that mean that generally the public take more notice than say more distant "false flag operations"? Yes.

Here in the UK there is obviously July 7th 2005 which can be spoken about. Most people just reply "huh?" if you mention the Madrid Bombings even, dumbed down Britain is suppose.

But I still get shocked responses when mentioning building 7 to people for the first time. Most people are flabbergasted when you ask, "you know about that third tower that fell at the WTC complex on 9/11, right?".

[Bind]

in short, no 9/11 in an of itself does not matter all that much.

I am an American, and while 9/11 is certainly a tragedy, I think people focus on it way to much, when its a symptom of a larger problem.

think bigger.

educate people to the real issue.

the real issue is the ruling elite influencing everyone and everything in our world in order to control the world.

after you get them to understand what you are talking about, then gradually go into how they are trying to achieve it.

[rsol]

well if anything they are focusing on it way too late.

10 years on and im glad it was about. if there was some feverish patriotic mood in the usa without this, i think we would be in iran right now.

[Bind]

(03-08-2011 09:17 AM)rsol Wrote:  well if anything they are focusing on it way too late.

10 years on and im glad it was about. if there was some feverish patriotic mood in the usa without this, i think we would be in iran right now.

thats just it - much pertinent information is not brought to light until many years after and incident have happened.

[Infinite]

(03-04-2011 08:13 PM)Dunamis Wrote:  Yea, I don't think anyone whinning man, just stating what they think in response. I think 9/11 does really matter, which is the actual thread title. Does it matter more than other subjects, probably not. Did more non-involved people die in that one day than any other situation in recent years? Yes. Does that mean that generally the public take more notice than say more distant "false flag operations"? Yes.

Here in the UK there is obviously July 7th 2005 which can be spoken about. Most people just reply "huh?" if you mention the Madrid Bombings even, dumbed down Britain is suppose.

But I still get shocked responses when mentioning building 7 to people for the first time. Most people are flabbergasted when you ask, "you know about that third tower that fell at the WTC complex on 9/11, right?".

I felt like I was being attacked in this thread, that's why I made the whining comment. I'm not telling people to forget about 9/11 per se, but how I feel is like this: People basically have their mind made up about stuff like whether 9/11 could be a conspiracy or not before you even talk to them about it. This is what I've observed in my 5 or so years of truth seeking. There's no way to 'wake' a lot or most people 'up' and actually the experience is often very degrading and demoralizing as these are people who mostly I have no desire to talk to and especially be insulted by. These are the type of opinions one typically encounters: http://ask.metafilter.com/86613/How-to-d...ist-friend

A lot of people can't deal with realities that contradict their idealized world view. That might be part of the reason why some in the truth movement are over zealously patriotic, to make up for the fact that what their saying is otherwise seen as 'treasonous'. Actually though it might also be a factor of class status. I notice that people who come from poverty are often a lot more receptive to conspiracy information and anti-establishment viewpoints than those whose backgrounds are more privileged. I don't think that most of the middle class especially can really be 'woken up'.

Oh also something I wanted to mention is that it's a huge fallacy that many truthers think that there will be a 'new investigation' into 9/11. As if an investigation would take place that would lead to the police actually going and arresting Bush & co. and the government putting out an apology for the whole war on terror. LOL. It's just a safer thing to say than the real conclusion one comes to when they wrap their head around 9/11 which is that what would really be needed in order for justice to be done would be a physical revolution and an overthrow of the tyrannical government.

[FastTadpole]

September 11th - A Culture of Perpetual Fear - What Year is This?
http://concen.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=35057

I don't like what the truth movement has become with infighting and conflicting theories at every turn we can try to piece together the truth and find those accountable but I equate it with the JFK assassination. Cheney or someone else may be thrown to the wolves as a bone. We may get another Nuremberg to gather the world hatred towards the US - that card is in active play right now but we're working with too little and what we're fed seems they want us to pounce on it.

The story is by design. The incompetence of the media was evident from the get go leading us with a trail of breadcrumbs. We've been played.

9/11 is a mystery wrapped in an enigma. The puzzle pieces (right and wrong) have been laid out and they fit every which way so we can always "prove" our world view is right no matter what the angle.

Just quash evil and lies as it comes up and attempts to entrench and install itself and shirk the chains of money and giving our power away to representatives and the co-dependant collective.

Demands for accountability will not get us anywhere. The people need to take back the means of production (food, water, energy ..) and control dissolve the factions that keep rubbing their boot in our face (military, culture, groupthink, law ..) and re-develop a conscience, starting with simple respect, to move forward both individually and as a species.

Fuck the fear re-installation program. Eyes on the ball. Focus. Install and build an intelligent means to express our creativity, foster innovation and fulfill our basic needs and not so basic desires without the puppets and tyrants directing the show.

We're losing our children, our property and our free will let's start there and be vigilant otherwise we're just waiting for the next cabal, race, government, corporation, agency, religion or secret cabal to point a finger at.

That gets us nowhere, not at this stage in the game. Stop playin'.

[Infinite]

(04-05-2011 08:23 AM)FastTadpole Wrote:  Demands for accountability will not get us anywhere. The people need to take back the means of production (food, water, energy ..) and control dissolve the factions that keep rubbing their boot in our face (military, culture, groupthink, law ..) and re-develop a conscience, starting with simple respect, to move forward both individually and as a species.

That's what I'm saying! People who call for accountability in government really aren't awake, they're scared themselves to face the full reality that in order for there to ever be justice the whole system has to go. I don't know what the exact solution is, I've become interested in the more individualist strands of anarchism in the last year. I think that those ideas are at least interesting to discuss more so than the proposed political solutions offered by most people in the truth movement, who still seem to hold to the notion of government hierarchy.

[rsol]

the whole system has to go? and be replaced by what? do i get a say in this new utopia? or will i be the one with my back against the wall?

These are the questions anyone would ask. the system is not the problem, its the people in it that ruin it for everyone. the mistake we make is blaming groups/system/religions for the problem when its individuals that pervert it and subvert whatever system that is place now. noone is following the rules.

You say change the system, I ask "what system?"

[FastTadpole]

Quote:I don't know what the exact solution is, ... the whole system has to go.

We have good things that exist within the system. No need to call for the entire deal that we have built up to go down the crapper. There are some good things that have been birthed by the system and we can't encompass it all in an everything must go revolution mentality. Figure out what's good what has to be tweaked and what has to be dismantled. At the same time we build/rebuild to fill the holes of commerce, distribution, communication, energy etc. and the fulfillment of needs. We gradually built this web and it would be a mistake to take it all down in a quick and dirty fashion.

A migration of centralized to decentralized systems that can cooperate and compete would be ideal. It's different for every community, for every technology for every social order but it has to be founded on mutual respect for eachother and the ecosystem we reside in.

A few ideas for a rough starter:

* Release all patents and set the information free but act prudently with it as often it can be a double edged sword
* Simplify law and apply it fairly and equally according to the communities values.
* Free up land for responsible stewardship and development for co-existence with Earth's inhabitants.
* Allow freedom of travel. We are not penned in farm animals.
* Respect your neighbour whether they be next door or on the other side of the world.
* Centralized money does not work but a common exchange would be useful. Usury should be abolished. The money now is a cheap magic trick, an illusion, treat it as such.
* Excessive hoarding is frowned upon and should be dealt with.
* Centralized decision making does not work, group collaboration does. Make it voluntary not forced but don't allow those who don't contribute a free ride but allow those who want to give a free ride to those in need that option out of their fair share earned.
* Corporations are not people
* Governments are not people they are the executive branch to serve the people if and when it is needed, not as a way of railroading a nation or humanity as a whole.
* Value the individual as if they were family.

Pick it apart, add to it, hack it down. Really it's whatever works at whatever pace for each individual community and if you don't like your community go join and contribute to another.

Human strength is the diversity of individuals. It's akin to mixed farming vs. factory farming; or a single bamboo shooting straight up but can be chopped down in one fell swoop vs. a great oak with a thick trunk and branches that goes every which way.

The "system" has fostered some advancements that can act as seeds for the next generation that inhabits this floating marble. Use them as you will but temper them with wisdom, prudence and respect for others.

Make a wrong move and their will be direct consequences as you will be accountable directly as a group, a community or an individual.

Quote:its the people in it that ruin it for everyone.

There has to be consequence. The shell game, the blame game, the detachment from action to apathy to consequence is too far obfuscated in a collective mentality.

Related:

Individualism vs Collectivism, The True Debate of Our Time
http://forum.concen.org/showthread.php?tid=35103