When does the unborn baby feel pain?

[FastTadpole]

I was considering this thread into the Flame Wars section. It started off really good and then got took on a circular argumentative with a smattering of insights.

Quote:thread topic is about abortion:

discuss.......

To back up my previous comments here's some stuff from the film - Agenda - Grinding America Down.

   

Quite the connections and form a pretty good sized chunk of the scope and magnitude of Grinding the World Down that seem thorough but it ain't even the half.

   

It's a bit pro-republican, well maybe tea party, and really misses the train on the UN / IMF involvement and PPP (UN Agenda 21) initiatives. That said, it makes some great points. Agenda - Grinding America Down references real facts and connects some serious dots with Marxism and the attack on culture, the family unit and morality albeit from a sometimes subtle and overt Christian angle. Abortion is part of that multi-pronged Bring Down Mighty America matrix and it makes for. See through the window dressing focus on the facts you know are true because they are right in your face.


Anyone have a copy of Blood Money - Abortion in America

[solar]

We would all agree that a woman, whether she feels pain or not, has the right to protect and control her own body ...

... would we also agree that an *unborn* woman, whether she feels pain or not, has the right to protect and control her own body?

[rsol]

yes you pretty much said it there. i reckon the there are republicans out there that can link anything or anyone to marx

the communists want to kill your baby or they are Satanists or Zionist. i bet if i look now i can find an anti-zionist blaming abortions on the Jews. or Christians blaming Satanists, or pagans, ritual sacrifice. ect.ect. there are conspiracies out there but not everywhere.

Its really about 2 people and having kids. that's the truth....

the conspiracy comes from that video. its implications are the true seeds of doubt spread by those wishing to enslave us. using our perceived enemies as methods of divide to ....well....you know.....rule.

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(12-23-2010 12:17 AM)solar Wrote:  We would all agree that a woman, whether she feels pain or not, has the right to protect and control her own body ...

... would we also agree that an *unborn* woman, whether she feels pain or not, has the right to protect and control her own body?

well, this is my take on this. As a loyal husband i stand by what by GF did. I say that as we have been together longer than most marriages these days. I am not the one who has to do it. But do i get the right?

now we have 3 in the dilemma. the thing i consider is that who CAN choose. as far as wanting to be born. you cant equate that to this "unborn". he/she had no say in being born. can we ask? this "unborn" cannot even reason yet.

The choice has always fallen to the potential mother throughout the ages. societies have imposed sanctions but have not stopped its practice, which is as old as giving birth. It is a natural thing. I don't think anything natural need be perceived as a threat or in disgust.

[mothandrust]

(12-22-2010 11:48 PM)rsol Wrote:  moth just wants it all to just go away. im not here for that man. im sorry if i offended you mr rust but please have some perspective. im not a big fan of people shifting realities on a subject. The argument i make has been centred around the child. the one in the womb. the one that gets born. kids are born disabled, deaf blind, missing limbs all kinds. you say eugenics. its all accidents most of the time, guilt can really ruin people but resentment is so much worse.

ah, you really misperceive me my friend. it is true i feel alienated from western society, horrified by wealth polarisation, but it gives reason to my existence

please note, did not once condemn your action, i said it's none of my business. i guess i probably said (although i'm not going back through the pages to confirm it) i do not agree with abortion, which as a general statement is true. i accept there are a whole load of other considerations that are brought to bear in any practical situation. (what i am guilty of, i know, is examining the philosophical perspective without always giving due consideration to the practical stuff)

but, one of the points i was making, and i felt you were twisting/misperceiving was my statement that, given the state of the world today, it might be a blessed relief for the infant not to have to go through life. i think it's what provoked the 'suicide' comment?

suicide seems at epidemic levels in our society. i have known several people who have committed suicide (one of them one of my closest friends) and many more who have attempted it. in Japan it seems like an internet craze. and, for me personally i can see the attraction, well, i could, if i wasn't so aware of what it does to those closest to the individual, and, that through my studies, and experiences over the last decade, i've come to believe in something far greater than evolution and chaos theory.

it seems to me, life is, or should be, the greatest gift we are ever given. we only need consider the tenacity of any other life form in attempting to hold on to it to show this as the truth. and we've got the internet and nike, and exotic delicacies magiced to our markets from goodness knows where! lifestyles and capacities far beyond mythological gods of old, but happiness? well, maybe it's my jaundest view, and not being able to engage with 'strictly' or 'x factor' but what i see is a population of hyper, stressed out, psychotic/depressed/manic people, who hardly know up from down. life for so many seems like torture.

weird, ain't it, we should be flat on our backs with pleasure with all this wonderment and sensation delivered to us 24/7. wtf?

ooo sorry, i can see i'm drifting off subject and the path back is long and convaluted, via the sort of world we'd like to see our kids born into, and how that might be administered, so, just to say, if all we had to look forward to was ever worse and more manipulative versions of game shows and the like, more control and polarisation, more laws and corruption, corporate dominance.... then yes, perhaps abortion is a lucky escape.

a brief postscript (way past bedtime) reading through your stuff man, it still feels like you're trying to justify yourself. maybe, i don't know, i don't (and can't) know you well enough, and i know on the internet people don't converse as they would over a cup of tea but whatever, all life is a learning experience and the most painful lessons are always of most value, well, assuming there's anything to be learnt from life.

peace,

j

[rsol]

no moth i dont think you drifted too far. you hit a valid point.

For the individual who doesnt want to abort or have abortions in the world it must be a pretty horrible world. xfactor is over so breath a sigh of relief also big brother is closing down(we lend them gear).

suicide is only epidemic if you listen to the news. The suicide comment may need to be re-read. read it in its context, its actually expressing the ultruistic attitude towards the afterlife and other spiritual bias, not the practical or humanist perspective. Humanists understand THIS LIFE to be the one and only, no external non-existant entities. This is the precious nature of the humanist arguement. if you are going to bring a life into this world the very least you could do is be ready for it.

[triplesix]

As corny as it sounds,

one day, when all of the orphan children of the world have an opportunity to enjoy a full childhood and a full opportunity at life, no matter where they are born or to whom,

I don't think a person alive would choose to abort their child.

Until then, it is what it is. As someone said the act has been incessantly demonized but perpetually practiced. That means that it is the Way of the current Time. Perhaps it will change. We can't dictate that.

[rsol]

Quote:"That means that it is the Way of the current Time. Perhaps it will change. We can't dictate that. "

it is the way of all time. the only thing that can change is the perscecution. thats the only thing organised in this equation.

forgiveness is not for others but for the beholder. its is devine....those who seek god would find better ways to forgive others around them. those who seek peace in their minds would do best to follow suit.

[^v^hooters ex]

I dont like the thought of neighbours so brainwashed they drag pregnant women out of their homes and force them into clinics for abortions.

The pregnant women are being anti-social to resist.

This is not persecution. It is good governance in a time when we must think of the mass and the environment as a primary focus.

As the UN alludes to, in numerous documents - China is the model when it comes to "population control"

Some people cannot see the wood for the trees and are snagged in discussing only the minutae missing the larger signposts on the march of progress.

[rsol]

Quote:I dont like the thought of neighbours so brainwashed they drag pregnant women out of their homes and force them into clinics for abortions.

but persecuting them for what they choose to do would be fine? noone is dragging women to abortions clinics. You dont understand the chinese rules with children either. its to do with child support. they are in a situation where they have a huge population problem with 3 times the amount of people in america crammed into a space like canada. that is a by-product of too much breeding. its a natural reaction.

[rsol]

hooters you ONCE AGAIN have derailed the whole debate on abortion so you can have a go.

You obviously have very little in the reason or logic department if your arguements are chinese death squads, 1st world war history and childish name calling and taunts.

What is a construct? a construct is a form YOU have decided apon. any definition of something or someone goes toward the construct you have regarding them. a lack of knowledge about the person in question leads to error. No its not that I type too fast but please wiki a word if it confuses you next time.

pointless wastes of time
example:

China

You seem to make out that the chinese economy is artificial "artificial elevation" to quote you. why this is important to you i dont know. why its wrong is my explaination about the fact that almost everything out to buy is made in china..... we all know this.

Quote:"I didn't buy my laptop. I don't buy things from China, as difficult as that is for you to comprehend...just because you find boycotting China too difficult doesn't mean everyone else does."

Yes it does. YOU assume because YOU dont buy anything from china, you are "everyone else" this means that the fact china is exporting a shit load of stuff to everyone in the planet is of no consequence and they are infact just some basket case economy. Its all made up. you know this because you dont buy from china. this would be a logical fallacy.

you dont like china so you dont buy their products. what an impact on their economy you must wield. how very israeli of you

And another thing. dissidents DO post over the top propaganda to push for what they want. They will also make up stuff about their state or others. they will paint history as it was not. They tend to make up enemies and spread lies in order to get thier agenda through. yes dissidents are not just people fighting for whats right. they can also be fucking idiots who simply dont understand the world around them and think every problem in the world must be "them"......



anyway. abortion.....remember?.....the topic? can you stay on it for one post?

[^v^hooters ex]

blah blah blah. so many words yet so devoid of content. No wonder this site is dying if you are amongst the "cream" of the regular posters left after the last power fit around here.

Chinese death squads?? Well, yes there are firing squads that's for sure but I don't think I mentioned them. AS I SAID your continual use of rudimentary logical fallacies belies where you are at. Flimsy. Your user name says it all.

As also stated -- I HAVE NO COMPUNCTION to "debate" with you in particular (in terms of your own misappropriation of the term) as it is quite apparent you are outrageously full of your own importance splashing away in huffs and puffs in your paddling pool. There are millions of other more interesting people with engaging ideas and opinions to debate with out there rather than settle for the controlled/blinkered monologues you run rough shod with over this ghost ship of a board. peace lol

I bet you own a TV too but tell people who don't have one they watch too much TV. LMAO

You take stereo-typical liberal discourses about wimmins' rights and regurgitate them ad hoc, without anything more than the very most superficial consideration and absolutely no mention of how such things can become abused by the very powerful in "society". exemplary work.you sound like an apologist for Chinese authoritarianism too. Nice mix.

[rsol]

Quote:"You take stereo-typical liberal discourses about wimmins' rights and regurgitate them ad hoc, without anything more than the very most superficial consideration and absolutely no mention of how such things can become abused by the very powerful in "society". exemplary work.you sound like an apologist for Chinese authoritarianism too. Nice mix. "

first of all. your labelling spells you out. you use the word liberal like its an insult. only one type of guy like that. you have too many people to your left. it may be you.

The fact that china has a 1 child policy is due to the very large population. thats why its in place. you can dress it up as some clandestine operation with vans running around the streets picking up half pregnant ladies if you like. you wont find alot of facts to back up that claim. so no, i will not agree with you on china the fact that powerful people in the country can flout the law? really? people do that? overpopulation needs less people being born. the reasons are obvious, the reasons as to why not??? ill let you answer that one...


you are also using world war 1 as an example? for abortions? you think that there is some persecution coming from the idea of being against abortion? explain how that would manifest..... your compunctions should be aimed at your debate, not at debating me.

you are talking about using as an example, early 20th century England, about a time when people were also persecuted for being gay, anti war, a woman wanting to vote, to name but a few. oh yeah, they were none too keen on abortion too. that's right, state sanctioned persecution of a person. from 1803 to 1929(!) it was a death penalty. quite a fucked up society.... your lack of research shows you that your example should really be in my corner of the debate..thanks for sharing.

You are just angry because you dont like something and have no logical point to stop it. admit it to yourself and move on. your passing glances at scaremongery quashed.....what next?

[^v^hooters ex]

(01-07-2011 09:52 PM)SiLVa Wrote:  no apologies necessary. I can respect both of your opinions but it seemed like it was getting a little redundant.

So don't read it!

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(01-07-2011 08:25 PM)SiLVa Wrote:  Geez, both of you, just quit it already. Cant you see this is going nowhere?
I dont think Ive ever seen so many back and forth posts here that go absolutely nowhere.

So don't read it! lol

Expert Condemns Late-Term Forced Abortion in Chinese City

Forced abortions have always been the enforcement mechanism of last
resort for the one-child policy. Hundreds of thousands, if not
millions, of late-term abortions happen every year in China. The
forced abortion recorded in the link below is unusual because it was
captured on film by a camera crew and posted on YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmfBA6KhAfg

When the woman in the video was found to be pregnant with an
illegal second child, a dozen family planning officials came to her
home to arrest her. As her husband explains in the video, “They
held her arms behind her back, pushed her head against the door,
kicked her stomach,” an obvious efforts to cause a miscarriage.

When this failed she was taken to a family planning detention
center where she was held down and given a lethal injection into the
uterus. There are huge bruises on her arm; evidences of her struggles
to escape their grip and save her child's life. Her baby is still
moving during the video but she knows it will soon die.

Steven W. Mosher, President of the Population Research Institute,
witness identical scenes of brutality when the one-child policy began
30 years ago. “Over the past three decades, tens of millions of women
have suffered through what this woman has experienced: Arrest,
imprisonment, and the deliberation execution of their unborn children
by agents of the state.”

“I commend the news reporter for having obtained this tragic story
and broadcast it to the world,” says Mosher. “But I would offer one
correction. The reporter claims that forced abortion is not central
government policy in China. This is mistaken.”

“The Chinese Communist Party puts tremendous pressure on officials
to meet quotas for live births. They are today—and have always
been—completely responsible for the way their cruel one-child policy
is being implemented. It is on their orders that millions of women
have been dragged into abortion mills, strapped down on operating
tables, and forced to have abortions by lethal injection—often
followed by cesarean-section abortions to remove their now dead
babies. The Chinese Communist Party brags that it has prevented 400
million births over the past 30 years. That works out to about 13
million babies each year.”

“The next time you think of buying something ‘Made in
China,’ think of these women and their suffering, and put it
back on the shelf,” says Mosher.

Clearly just more propaganda and lies, says the rsol with the opinions worthy of respect.

[rsol]

this guy was kicked out in 1980. hes tireless and his boss was a catholic and a staunch pro-lifer. they want abortions BANNED. if he ever bothered to look into the policy instead of whiping up pro-life frenzy he would of been able to notice that the one-child policy is implimented at a state level.

in china they have provinces, these provinces have thier own principalities and their own cultures. they all adapt policy from state level down the lines in their own fashion.

One of the key points with this is, laws and regulations change from one province to another. even methods of policing and taxation.

Mr Mosher, being a staunch catholic and anti-abortionist, went to china for the first year of the implementation of the one child policy. he was thrown out for publishing photos of alleged forced abortions. He was booted out of stanford for using images but not obscuring the faces of the women photographed, endangering their lives.

The policy in china has changed over the first years, infact straight after this incident the chinese looked into it and went totally slack on it, then tightened up and eased again over the space of about 4-5 years. the last 25 have been a steady settling in of the proccess.

This is based on REAL research not just propaganda spouted by loons with an anti-abortion agenda. yes this is agenda driven research.

I am not able to view youtube.com from work so i cant see that video. i have a feeling i know what it is. i will comment on that when i get home. i know about rev marx etc etc.

[crystal]

Im learning something here. I dont understand why a discussion should be ended. The example of China is one we should warned of as their inhumane practices of a 'good society' are slowly being followed as a model for the rest of the world. I also want to add that Ive worked with Chinese grown up only children and although lovely as they are there is something overly conditioned and sad about them due to the regime that brought them up.
So as not to be accused of going off topic there is lots of articles which also support the view that the unborn baby does feel pain.