When does the unborn baby feel pain?

[mothandrust]

(12-20-2010 07:14 PM)rsol Wrote:  

Quote:rsol, there was never a law made that wasn't about control, and there was never a law made that wasn't validated through authority, and violence. That's what law does, it takes away the decision waking process from the individual and puts it in the hands of authority. Authority, which is always, without exception, corrupt.

come on moth...... i know you are cleverer than that. you know nothing is so simplistic.

Most law is about property granted. this is the controls. There isnt a law that makes abortion mandatory.

well we're probably talking at slightly cross purposes or conceptualising differently. to my mind, any law, which must be authenticated by some governing power (otherwise it wouldn't be 'law'), effectively imposes an order, control, on those governed.

if you disagree, can you give me an example.

[rsol]

governance is about agreed and accepted controls agreed upon by the people living in that society.

Law is established through trial. hence the name. this is where the agreed upon accepted controls and norms can be trialled.

The other laws come from law lords or in the case of usa, the senate. these are agreed upon by voted peers then passed through several versions until these chosen few can agree or it has a majority vote. most of these laws can be destroyed by court law. in fact court law is the mulching mechanism that destroys bad law and keeps the good. these are the controls of what you speak of. they may come into force but the law must have a chew on it before its gospel.

Or at least that's the idea. the reality of the situation is different to the idea but it does stay alive in many peoples minds as they diligently carry on their work. you may disagree but i understand the need for agreed norms and don't consider suspicion to be laid on every special interest group on earth. remember guys this is about girls with a medical condition. They choose to keep of not. they don't need emotional blackmail to change their minds.

I chose to murder my first and unborn child. yes if that's your terms. i chose my life and my GFs. I chose to listen to what my GF said not some inner spirit or my genes. I decided what I thought myself. I cant wait to be a dad. but a good dad. thats the correct, considerate, sensible and MORAL way to become a dad. souls ARE created, by their parents.

[mothandrust]

but i don't accept those controls. nor do i accept anyone has the right to tell me how to live my life, and particularly not society, or the liars and hypocrites that they elect in their ignorance. agreed norms in this environment are, for e.g. distorted animals pumped full of growth hormones that never see the light of day, poverty stricken child slaves making useless crap and cheap clothes to sate the insatiable, polarisation in wealth unknown through history, war as a means to an end, power structures (state, church, corporation...) holding moral authotity, hemp as illegal, and on and on. bollocks, the lot of them, imo. including any 'law' on abortion: rubbish. you make your decision, based on what you know, how you feel, your belief structures, whatever. i have no right, any more than anyone else does, (or the 'law') to judge your rational.

law is just something to hide behind

there is no one making 'laws' who does not have property, money, power, and has a vested interest in keeping all three. i.e. invalidated from passing an objective opinion.

personally rsol, my feeling is (feeling so alienated from this current world), regardless of external factors and practical considerations, given the suffering on display in our world, this foetus may have had a lucky escape.

[rsol]

so if i ask you to not murder your nieghbour, you are going to tell me you have that right? that guy pays taxes, you dont think he might want to hire someone to protect him from you? you think you can rob and steal in the name of freedom?

Of course there has to be agreed norms for ANY society. thats a basic principle.

You are looking at all laws with the same distain, as though they are all here just to bring you down. thats simply not the case and you know this.

To put government in such stark terms makes for very inaccurate assesment. there are people in power pulling strings and scratching backs yes. that does not mean the entire system is currupt by design. It would not have survived this long if that were true.

Quote:personally rsol, my feeling is (feeling so alienated from this current world), regardless of external factors and practical considerations, given the suffering on display in our world, this foetus may have had a lucky escape.

I could agree. but heres the thing. if it is the world that you think it is. kill yourself. or, if you havent got the guts like most people, YOU have to come to the world. its all very well sitting in your own world taking pot shots at the planet and it inhabitants but you are one of them. If you feel alienated, you are not alone.....that doesnt mean its the worlds fault though....

If you feel apart from the world that is YOUR FAULT, accepting that life has this dynamic will help with that. you cant expect the world to change if you dont expect to change yourself.

I've learned in my time on this planet that there is only one truth you can stick to. YOU ARE HERE. You cant change that paradigm. You can be upset with it, get angry, be inconvenienced by your existance all you like but it wont change the fact that you are here with the rest of us.

[crystal]

When does the unborn baby feel pain?
From the moment of conception. Going from a formless free spirit world to the caged confines of a human beings insides, yucky. This is my opinion, of course.

More examples of pre birth memories here
http://www.cosmiccradle.com/big_bang2.html

Empedocles (490-430 BC Greece) - Greek pre-Socratic philosopher and a pupil of Pythagoras.
'I am a wanderer exiled from the divine dwelling. I fell down to Earth from my high estate due to the decree which requires erring souls to wander from their heavenly home. I have experienced a series of lifetimes for 30,000 seasons: a boy, a girl, a bush, a bird, and a mute fish in the sea. I wept at being born on Earth once again, the region of raging discord. I expect to rejoin the immortals following this life.'

[rsol]

more fantasy talk. you probably consider me closed minded. Open yourself up to the idea these guys were not exactly knowledgeable about the world around them. they were pretty informed for their day but even a 16 year old kid knows more.

These are fanciful words meant to inspire a barely enlightened peoples. they are trying to make sense of what they see without proper understanding of what they are experiencing.

Imagination is a powerful tool. it can trick and twist easily though.

Its interesting that you used the work "yucky" describing birth........ this can show a distaste at the idea your genes share that with animals. I feel its abhorant to some that they have origins on earth and not the work of some yet to be seen omnipresent being. This is part of that arrogance i spoke of earlier.

You are an animal. sorry. yes you eat and shit and produce gas from your backside. yes birth is a pretty traumatic experience, thats life!!!

If you think your soul is imortal and can see the world around you, why are you even here? surely you and everyone else thinking this should be throwing themselves off bridges so they can get to the next level. Your genes are stopping you with one of the fundementals in life.

In order to be alive you have to have a healthy fear of death. This is an animal instinct. religeon is a perversion of this fear. its natural and we as a society evolve.

does the potato have a soul? or is this classification just for us higher primates? arent we special..

[mothandrust]

(12-21-2010 10:07 AM)rsol Wrote:  so if i ask you to not murder your nieghbour, you are going to tell me you have that right? that guy pays taxes, you dont think he might want to hire someone to protect him from you? you think you can rob and steal in the name of freedom?

Well, that's what our governments do, under their concocted rules, like ownership, usury, limited liability, validity of war, violence... judgement, and indeed, in the name of 'freedom' to which their brainwashed slaves submit and adhere, as they wave their bits of coloured cloth, demonstrating their pride and ignorance in their own slavery.

(12-21-2010 10:07 AM)rsol Wrote:  Of course there has to be agreed norms for ANY society. thats a basic principle.

Well sorry man, that's not my basic principle, principal, I don't agree with anyone else's norms. I consult my heart and mind and act accordingly. Agreeing with other peoples' norms validates war and government: I want no part thank you.

(12-21-2010 10:07 AM)rsol Wrote:  You are looking at all laws with the same distain, as though they are all here just to bring you down. thats simply not the case and you know this.

Actually I 'knew' this up until about a decade past (I was a good capitalist, one of Thatcher's children), then I started to investigate seriously rather than believe the shit pumped into me by government, media, corporations, education, society etc.

(12-21-2010 10:07 AM)rsol Wrote:  To put government in such stark terms makes for very inaccurate assesment. there are people in power pulling strings and scratching backs yes. that does not mean the entire system is currupt by design. It would not have survived this long if that were true.

“Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.” can you show me a country, any country, to escape this paradigm? The notion of the 'state' has been around for a couple of millennia or so. Truly a blink of an eye in evolutionary terms. And yes, it is corrupt by design, because it enables people to surrender responsibility for their own lives to a higher power, claiming legitimacy, though in actual fact it has obtained power through violence, i.e. illegitimately.

(12-21-2010 10:07 AM)rsol Wrote:  

mnr Wrote:]personally rsol, my feeling is (feeling so alienated from this current world), regardless of external factors and practical considerations, given the suffering on display in our world, this foetus may have had a lucky escape.

I could agree. but heres the thing. if it is the world that you think it is. kill yourself. or, if you havent got the guts like most people, YOU have to come to the world. its all very well sitting in your own world taking pot shots at the planet and it inhabitants but you are one of them. If you feel alienated, you are not alone.....that doesnt mean its the worlds fault though....

Well it could also be argued, killing oneself is an act of cowardice, rather than fighting for a belief (no matter how futile). Sure, it's not the world's fault, things are the way they are, it is not my position to judge, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't invest my talents in attempting to create a more harmonious environment in whatever way I see fit, regardless of these so called 'laws' that authority attempts to impose. TRUE LAW is found in one's own heart, not in the diktats of another. That's a cop out.

(12-21-2010 10:07 AM)rsol Wrote:  If you feel apart from the world that is YOUR FAULT, accepting that life has this dynamic will help with that. you cant expect the world to change if you dont expect to change yourself.

Well, true enough, except for the notion of 'fault', which is a value judgement. Things are the way they are. Gandhi said: “Be the change you want to see in the world”, and that, in my own peculiar way, is what I try to do (without of course, ever living up to my ideals or expectations )

(12-21-2010 10:07 AM)rsol Wrote:  I've learned in my time on this planet that there is only one truth you can stick to. YOU ARE HERE. You cant change that paradigm. You can be upset with it, get angry, be inconvenienced by your existance all you like but it wont change the fact that you are here with the rest of us.

“You are here”, I can almost see the arrow on the plan but where you were a second ago is not where you are now, and now that's gone, and that, and that... you are always where you are, but you are never stationary. You are always on the journey through life, and while you may not be the driver, you do at least (apparently) have some influence over the steering.

Sorry rsol, I'm absolutely impossible to debate with on this subject (and many others, if indeed they are not all the same subject viewed from different angles), I'm as an extreme an extremist as you will ever encounter: more fundamental than any fundamentalist and, really, apologies, my perspective is completely hopeless for interacting in any practical way with modern western society (which is why if it wasn't for need of medical treatment I'd be back living on my mountain in (almost) darkest Africa. Where I can at least have these views without constant threat from authority, and be the change I want to see).

I know you're not a Christian rsol (nor am I in any conventional sense) but I am happy to recognise Jesus' commandments: love God (Truth, or however you wish to name the motivation of being) and love others as yourself, and do not judge. It's a funny thing, in the way of instruction, that's all Jesus left, pretty fucking simple really. Yet, back through history all our leaders have professed Christian sentiments, and yet NOT ONE OF THEM, EVER, put them into practice. Liars and fucking hypocrites the lot of them. The only (possible) exception I can find is Gandhi, and he wasn't even Christian! Wtf?

(I'm feeling a little guilty here about straying off topic, don't know it's an idea to split the thread or start a new one, or maybe I should just shut up. Mods?)

[rsol]

Quote:"Sorry rsol, I'm absolutely impossible to debate with on this subject (and many others, if indeed they are not all the same subject viewed from different angles), I'm as an extreme an extremist as you will ever encounter: more fundamental than any fundamentalist Big Grin and, really, apologies, my perspective is completely hopeless for interacting in any practical way with modern western society (which is why if it wasn't for need of medical treatment I'd be back living on my mountain in (almost) darkest Africa. Where I can at least have these views without constant threat from authority, and be the change I want to see)."

well tough. we are here on earth whether you like it or not. dancing around your own morality wont help you either. if you understand Gandhi then you should know he meant to BE the change not just to change your self. you have to effect change or be sitting on the fence throwing grass.

You want to talk about past selves? you talk of a fiction. there is no future any more than the past. there is now and only now. keep taking the shrooms mate just keep edging a little further.

to kill yourself is an act of bravery, stupidity, but i defy anyone to tell me ending your existence is easy. You wouldnt be alive without it. guilt doesn't enter into it, or the choice of afterlife.

Quote:"“Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.” can you show me a country, any country, to escape this paradigm? The notion of the 'state' has been around for a couple of millennia or so. Truly a blink of an eye in evolutionary terms. And yes, it is corrupt by design, because it enables people to surrender responsibility for their own lives to a higher power, claiming legitimacy, though in actual fact it has obtained power through violence, i.e. illegitimately. "

yes? and powerful people can effect change some use this power for good others for evil, many for a bit of both. your stark idea of government is like a feminist calling you a potential rapist for being a man. you have prejudices.

If you want to escape go live in the woods. I did. if you dont want to be part of it then cut your self out. you wont be talking to me here tho. you enjoy so much so many others have fought for in protest for years, you CAN vote. that's a RIGHT now... the ladies didn't manage it till early last century. i bet you didn't vote. dont they keep telling you to vote?"we really want you to get out there and vote" dont they lie? they dont want you to vote. democracy is more manageable with a minority thinking is a majority. vice versa....

Im not some stickler for every rule. but i do understand why we have them. babies can sometimes follow the bathwater, be careful where you throw it.

that medical treatment you talk of is a government run controled system, without controls your treatment would cost you your life. NHS mate, call me a commy if you must its still better than being screwed for an asprin.


anyway...abortion.....good?....bad?....ugly?
All of the above...

[crystal]

Thanks for interesting posts mothandrust and hooters ex,
I also wanted to speak out against rsols continual repetition of his answer to all problems as suicide. To compel others to think along these lines is neither clever, nor responsible. One would have to ask if this is part of a more sinister agenda.
Birth and death are all encompassing subjects. It is hard to stay on topic when it involves so many factors!

[crystal]

Firstly, I have never stated that abortion is wrong in absolutely all cases.Everyone is responsible for his own actions. I have merely expressed that I disagree with the original article.
Possibly percieved as a totally different point entirely, I found this which illustrates why the practice of abortion is more than a medical procedure, removing some cells. If an unborn child would feel no pain then it would not be performed as a ritualistic sacrifice by those who are very much connected to the ever excepting theory of eugenics.

Daughter of eugenics founded Planned Parenthood nurse, “occult believers are the “core” of the pro-abortion movement”

Abigail Seidman was 10 years old her mother had an abortion. Abigail suspects her father was not the baby’s father, and her parents eventually divorced.
Abigail describes her childhood until that time as normal. But the abortion “radicalized” her mother, who came to decide abortion had not only been the right decision for her but was also good in a moral sense.

“She began to celebrate her abortion,” Abigail said, “explaining that now I would remain an only child.” But young Abigail was secretly horrified, because she had always wanted a sibling.
Abigail’s mother was and is a nurse. She quickly became more involved in feminism and the abortion culture. She decided to switch careers and began working at her local abortion mill in Toledo, Ohio
LSN: What aspects of life inside an abortion clinic did you notice were occult in nature? Did occult values assist the abortion process? How and to what extent?

SEIDMAN: The clinic where my mother worked was pervaded with occult imagery and practices. There was goddess art and statuary in the office, waiting, counseling, and recovery room areas, and new age music (occasionally including goddess chants and songs) was piped throughout. The counselors were primarily chosen for their spiritual qualifications, and a few did not even have a degree in a relevant field (ie psychology, counseling, social work). One was a trained chef turned sex worker (or “sacred prostitute”, as they preferred to think of it).

There were also special ceremonies involved when members of the clinic staff got intentionally pregnant in order to have abortions, which would be conducted after hours with a large group. I was not welcome at these ceremonies since I had never had an abortion myself (at the time), so I can’t give details, but on one occasion I babysat the infant daughter of a clinic worker during one, upstairs from the clinic, and I remember hearing bits of song/chanting and that the doctor was not present (he was male and the ceremony was female only), so the abortion was obviously being performed by an unqualified person. The women at the clinic were trained in “underground” abortion techniques in case of Roe v Wade being overturned.

LSN: Please tell me anything else you find surprising about your experience vis a vis the occult, or something you think the typical pro-lifer would not guess to be so.

SEIDMAN: I think the thing that pro-lifers have found to be the most surprising, in my discussions with them thus far, is that the paganism/wicca/goddess-worship IS taken seriously by many liberals, pro-choicers, feminists, etc. It’s not just a boogeyman. Whether or not one believes that these spiritual beliefs and practices have any power, the fact is that there is a significant population of people who do, and who believe in it just as wholeheartedly as we believe in Christianity or other faiths.

[rsol]

ok well this is better i suppose. im not quite sure if this isnt simply propaganda BY the anti-abortion movement. perhaps clinics in america are different there. no ceremony or occult practices in my case.

what i would say that the bias is pretty huge in this passage, and i quote

Quote:"paganism/wicca/goddess-worship IS taken seriously by many liberals, pro-choicers, feminists, etc."

liberals.....you mean democrats...... can we spot a republican?

Quote:"the fact is that there is a significant population of people who do, and who believe in it just as wholeheartedly as we believe in Christianity or other faiths. "

just the last sentence. as WE believe in christianity........

Now he did say other faiths, lets be honest. hes not really talking about other faiths here. This is the only way for the "spiritual" people of this world to combat abortion, its a mind set. celebrating abortions? i never recieved my "happy termination" card from the doctor. im sort of disappointed now....The fact that this is the view of anti-abortionists, not all but some who would be willing to kill to stop such a travesty. logic didnt escape them, logic was exiled. If you think abortion is an occult practice, you will treat it as such. and a great tool to intoxicate radical christians to lead the charge.

I think I could pick that writer out of a crowd.

---

Quote:grow up man. deal with your personal baggage, you can't transfer it on to others no matter how hard you try.

im not the one going on about how horrible the world is and its all by design. thats YOUR baggage.
Please dont be hipocritical moth, it doesnt become you.

[rsol]

please consider putting something into the debate than re-reading what i say and reading it out of context. thats the 3rd time now. you still havent said anything to prop up your case. whats the matter?

Oooo maybe a tiny bit of a point there. are you stating that abortions might be traumatic? really? Theres me being the guy looking after my GF while her hormones do an even crazier dance than usual, weeks afterwards.... what would I know? oh you arent talking about the clinical bit, you are talking of guilt. well that can be laid at the feet of all you anti-abortionists. too busy with the next life to worry about this. worrying about what an imaginary friend thinks of them.....odd lot.

---

I'd also like to add to this. You all seem to think you are on some moral high ground by this, i dont just beg, I demand to differ!!

Whats moral about telling others how to live thier lives?
I know lets screw the mom lets screw the kid. yes the child will kill the mother if it is brought to term but hey, kids dont need moms and dads no they just need GOD. stick them in an orphanage!! yeah it'll be fine. Theres people lining up around the street waiting to have those kids yeah? i mean yes people who cant have kids seem to spend huge sums of money in IVF so THEY can have THEIR children.

Lets fill the world with orphans and unwanted children born to parents without a hope of raising them. Its the only way they will learn the value of abstinance......

Well if only the world revolved around your thoughts.........There is very little merit in trying to push for laws so you can feel better and even less morality.

You can consider me a creature born with a mind capable of abstract thought. i think thats impressive enough after sitting on this rock for the last few billion years. not good enough for you lot.

Well, im not an animate machine. animate machines are MADE, created, requiring a CREATOR.

anti abortion and anti contriception are Ideas that have caused the needless deaths of millions of children. not foetuses. actually living, breathing, thinking children. probably wondering why they were born in the first place. enjoy your morality im sure you think its for the best.

[rsol]

well apart from fanning flames here. what have you got to bring to the debate? the pair of you. i ask you. if you guys are all spiritual why the hostile tone AT ME. not my stance. you have yet to even address what i have said and taken this debate personally. then hurled it at me. shall we track back?

go and read back through and show me who's overreacting and who's trying to have a debate.

thread topic is about abortion:

discuss.......

[SiLVa]

I already weighed in on my thoughts regarding state-funded abortion. You didnt address it, which is fine, but I dont know what youre looking for. The actual topic was "When does the unborn baby feel pain". You helped turn it into a Pro/Anti abortion discussion, when you started ranting about your disdain for anti-abortionists and continued with the same moral indignation you've exhibited throughout the thread. I guess because of your own personal issue. But I made no criticism of you for what you chose to do. Im against abortion being subsidized by the state, just the same as I'm against it being made illegal. I think my perspective falls along side what h3rm35 said in his posts. What else do you want to know?
When did I claim to be spiritual? WTF...
I used to feel the same way as you seem to, in regards to abortion, but things have changed. Ive seen the abortion issue in a different light now.
Its not so black & white.
I didnt take it personal, just thought your attitude was unnecessary. Especially towards mothandrust. You mustve thought he was condemning you or something, but I saw no such thing. It also seems you took it much more personal when you gave me a neg rep.
Its obvious that this is an emotional topic for you, but you're not the only one that has ever dealt with such an issue in your personal life. So lets not jump to conclusions.

[rsol]

(12-22-2010 11:10 PM)SiLVa Wrote:  I already weighed in on my thoughts regarding state-funded abortion. You didnt address it, which is fine, but I dont know what youre looking for. The actual topic was "When does the unborn baby feel pain". You helped turn it into a Pro/Anti abortion discussion, when you started ranting about your disdain for anti-abortionists and continued with the same moral indignation you've exhibited throughout the thread. I guess because of your own personal issue. But I made no criticism of you for what you chose to do. Im against abortion being subsidized by the state, just the same as I'm against it being made illegal. I think my perspective falls along side what h3rm35 said in his posts. What else do you want to know?
When did I claim to be spiritual? WTF...
I used to feel the same way as you seem to, in regards to abortion, but things have changed. Ive seen the abortion issue in a different light now.
Its not so black & white.
I didnt take it personal, just thought your attitude was unnecessary. Especially towards mothandrust. You mustve thought he was condemning you or something, but I saw no such thing. It also seems you took it much more personal when you gave me a neg rep.
Its obvious that this is an emotional topic for you, but you're not the only one that has ever dealt with such an issue in your personal life. So lets not jump to conclusions.

i did address it, your viewpoint of something state sanctioned automatically brings you out in a rash it always does. however this is not a mandatory thing. and also this is not the point. if the state DOES'NT prosecute someone for having an abortion, what has that got to do with abortions paid for by taxes? or by a fund created by a company. go private and you still pay for others' abortions, they just cost more.

Its the emotional topic for you. im not going down that spiritual road with my argument. im not using my own disgust of something to make the world worse. thats the argument im trying to put out. it is emotive yes. thats why logic is needed.

btw thank you for at least starting some sort of dialog. you at least show your age.

the dangers of anti-abortionist measures have already taken its toll on many societies. reverting back would be regressive...

people fuck, they don't always protect themselves and then their child has to suffer.

moth just wants it all to just go away. im not here for that man. im sorry if i offended you mr rust but please have some perspective. im not a big fan of people shifting realities on a subject. The argument i make has been centred around the child. the one in the womb. the one that gets born. kids are born disabled, deaf blind, missing limbs all kinds. you say eugenics. its all accidents most of the time, guilt can really ruin people but resentment is so much worse.

To have a chance to plan your life means that you have a better chance to bring offspring into a secure environment. thats not eugenics thats evolution.

animals breed selectively, they dont just dump eggs and pups anywhere. they choose a nest or a hole they find food and shelter they find a mate. all selected.
We as humans are alike we have the genetics of a creature that can breed at will. we are in good shape. thats not going to change. it will if we have no control. abstinence is a nice way to put it and can be viewed as a merit. but we all know we have animal instincts with sexual tension built into our make-up. Such unnatural states can lead to perversions as our bodies force us to mate. sex is nice, fun and natural, mistakes can be made. something has to give.

A little more about my experience. this was my first and only. Its not something i think about until this thread. it was a medical condition for my GF and me. we weren't having a baby, we were pregnant. 6 weeks in. thats it. my situation has not changed and im glad of that. All i was doing was showing you that there are benefits to be made in the planning of a birth. and no, i dont worship a goddess or celebrate abortions.