Why Socialsm and Communism Fail Epically

[pax681]

(07-07-2011 06:57 AM)Hans Olo Wrote:  

(07-06-2011 06:09 PM)pax681 Wrote:  our sense of social justice means we don't mind a small percentage of our earnings to help us "insure" against medical treatment , dental treatment and unemployment/disablement.

Your sense of social justice means you can have somebody put a gun to my head, take my money and give it to the state, and I pretend it's voluntary.

Quote:we all pay it and i would genuinely say , we don't mind at all as it's not just my own personal benefit but also me fellow Scots as well.

Voluntary, then. Buy private insurance. Why make it mandatory? If it's so good, then everybody would buy it anyway.

erm.. e don't really do guns here and that, for a start is an absolutely silly analogy to be quite frank. overly dramatic to say the least.
see my end statement

buy private.. and gert HUMPED by HMO's like you do in America?
NO THANKS

you can still go private here, and many people still do however the National Health Service means we don't really have to and it's mostly done for people who chose elective surgery/treatments(ie cosmetic stuff but even then some of that can still be done on the NHS if the cause is causing psychological problems)

If i or anyone is in a car crash or similar accident.. we NEVER have to worry about insurance as it's already done via National Health contributions.

i am 41 and i have NEVER EVER IN ALL MY YEARS HEARD ANYONE COMPLAIN ABOUT NATIONAL INSURANCE.this is because it not only covers medical and dental, covers us for periods of unemployment and if worst comes to worst and we become disabled we get help then too.

i get meds for chronic pain in my knees and right hand.... hang ups from my time in the army.... and due to the chronic nature of the pain and the injuries, even though i work... i get those meds free, instead of paying what would be £35 per month(if i was in England) or fees to make you WEEP if in the USA.
I have a friend in Denver who has private medical insurance through her own employer, Kaiser medical, and she has to FIGHT to get what she needs via her insurance and she has a problem with blood that has a tendency to want to clot roe than normal blood does.
Her insurers.. that from that abortion of an HMO service screws her about something chronic and she STILL has to make payments!


pretty disgraceful is you ask me tbh.

Remember though, National insurance contributions are not just for the medical and dental thing, it also helps pay a sum of money to help those out of work survive and also helps those who are disabled.

As i have said, there is nothing in this world that would convince me that the USA's disgusting system of HMO's is better.

In fact, here's what i saw in Denver when i was there last October/November.... DOCTORS REFUSING TO TREAT SOMEONE as they had no insurance and they were VERY ill(they presumed they were insured through a policy from their employers).
That would never happen here...EVER.
From the cradle to the grave we have that free universal healthcare at the point of delivery and long may it last (and in Scotland it will)



addition: As i said, i am not even a socialist and to many in North America i imagine i sound like some form of what they consider to be a rampant commie!..LOL
my personal political are centre and ever , ever so slightly right. can't say i am a liberal as i actually have opinions
but I, liker most of the political spectrum here in Scotland,England,Wales and Ireland fully support and believe in the National Health Service

[R.R]

pax681 Wrote:In fact, here's what i saw in Denver when i was there last October/November.... DOCTORS REFUSING TO TREAT SOMEONE as they had no insurance and they were VERY ill(they presumed they were insured through a policy from their employers).
That would never happen here...EVER.

I'm pretty sure if those doctors weren't getting paid, they'd also refuse to treat people. So from that we can conclude socialism merely ensures the status seeking, greedy fuckers get paid - and that is altruistic?

Thats why socialism is 'perfected capitalism'.

[pax681]

R.R Wrote:I'm pretty sure if those doctors weren't getting paid, they'd also refuse to treat people. So from that we can conclude socialism merely ensures the status seeking, greedy fuckers get paid - and that is altruistic?

Thats why socialism is 'perfected capitalism'.

yeah they get paid, certainly due to the national insurance contributions.
i totally get what you mean though.... and have said i am not a socialist myself.. well i would not consider myself to be one at any rate.

the point remains though, not a single person would ever be refused treatment based on ability to pay in Scotland, England,Wales or Northern Ireland.

[rsol]

if you work you pay for the dentist. If you dont you can get SOME benefits for your teeth. Its not a free for all. Nhs survives fine ta. We are all skint because a massive economic behemoth just emptied its bowels onto the world.

This wing-nut knee jerking is beneath you.

Ive said it before but i repeat. every civilised nation has a national health service. We have regional police forces paid for by counsel taxes. Some things dont belong in private hands for the "efficiencies" in a business tend to be turned to profit rather than service. Some businesses work best in such models but having "competition" can defeat the purpose of the service in the first place.

An NHS is not the mainstay of "socialist" governments.

[Hans Olo]

If the government can make you buy health care, can it make obese people join weight watchers? Explain to me why not.

[pax681]

(07-08-2011 12:10 AM)Hans Olo Wrote:  If the government can make you buy health care, can it make obese people join weight watchers? Explain to me why not.

well many do get told "you need to lose weight for the operation" and such and some people told "you need to quit smoking for this procedure"
however some people are skinny... some people are not.. some people due to their genetics cannot help what weight they are, whether thin on huge.

next thing you will be suggesting is a eugenics program to weed the weak out..lol

[R.R]

Quote:next thing you will be suggesting is a eugenics program to weed the weak out..lol

Seriously though that is not too far fetched:

http://concen.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=39211

[Hans Olo]

I'm not suggesting anything. I'm saying IF the government can make you buy health care, why can't it make you join a health club, buy a certain car or eat yoghurt?

[pax681]

Hans Olo Wrote:I'm not suggesting anything. I'm saying IF the government can make you buy health care, why can't it make you join a health club, buy a certain car or eat yoghurt?

because like your HMO insurance there is no pre-requisite or obligation on the part of the insured not to be a huge mofo.
that is some weak kung fu as far as a line of reasoning goes.

[Infinite]

(07-08-2011 07:53 AM)pax681 Wrote:  

Hans Olo Wrote:I'm not suggesting anything. I'm saying IF the government can make you buy health care, why can't it make you join a health club, buy a certain car or eat yoghurt?

because like your HMO insurance there is no pre-requisite or obligation on the part of the insured not to be a huge mofo.
that is some weak kung fu as far as a line of reasoning goes.

No it's not, the principle question is who gets to decide what will one's fate will be, the individual or the collective/government? Western medicine in general is largely harmful if you've done any of the research on it, it's only mainly good for emergencies and injuries, not long term health. If cannabis oil were legally and widely used there would be much better overall health but the governments who love us so much will imprison you if you use it to cure someone of cancer for example.

[rsol]

what you fail to recognise is that governments NEED people. An NHS saves money on preventitive medicine. An HMO saves money by preventing/denying treatment.

[pax681]

(07-08-2011 02:01 PM)rsol Wrote:  what you fail to recognise is that governments NEED people. An NHS saves money on preventitive medicine. An HMO saves money by preventing/denying treatment.

~looks up~
what he said

[FastTadpole]

Fuel for debate and dissection. It's clear that Communism is being lumped in with Socialism but I still really haven't heard the big fundamental differences laid out to well. (nudge:

Quote:Checklist: America meets 90% of Karl Marx's demands
Posted: July 06, 2011
By Kirk Elliott

I recently re-read "The Communist Manifesto" written by Karl Marx in 1848.

What I read was a bit shocking. Marx had "10 planks" that this evil manifesto was based upon and he advocated the use of any means to accomplish these socialist goals including violent revolutions. The planks are listed bellow, followed by my comment on how it applies to America today:

10 planks of communism by Karl Marx

1. Abolition of private property in land and application of all rents of land to public purpose.

Dr. Elliott's Comment: This is where eminent domain comes into the picture, and even property taxes. Once you own your property outright by paying off your mortgage, you still don't technically own it because the government could jack up property taxes so high that it makes it unaffordable to remain.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

Dr. Elliott's Comment: Marginal tax rates increasing as income goes up IS a graduated income tax. This is in opposition to a more fair tax like a national sales tax or flat tax where a person is not taxed at a higher rate the more income they earn.

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

Dr. Elliott's Comment: In the U.S. these can be seen as estate taxes (i.e. the death tax).

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

Dr. Elliott's Comment: This is nothing more than government seizures, IRS property confiscation and the 1997 Crime/Terrorist bill which calls for the imprisonment of terrorists (not such a bad thing), but also for those who speak out against the government. Your LIFE is the most valuable property you have, but the government has the right to take it away because of things that you may say. Consider Senate Bill 3081, the "Enemy Belligerent, Interrogation, Detention, and Prosecution Act of 2010," co-sponsored by Sens. John McCain and Joe Lieberman. The following is actual text from the bill that explains what a belligerent may be and the reasons they can be detained without due process: "(A) The potential threat the individual poses for an attack on civilians or civilian facilities within the United States or upon United States citizens or United States civilian facilities abroad at the time of capture or when coming under the custody or control of the United States… (B) The potential threat the individual poses to United States military personnel or United States military facilities at the time of capture or when coming under the custody or control of the United States…. © The potential intelligence value of the individual… (D) Membership in al-Qaida or in a terrorist group affiliated with al-Qaida… (E) Such other matters as the president considers appropriate. . ." [THIS IS WHERE THERE IS A MAJOR, MAJOR PROBLEM] This is very subjective and could include a multitude of things – even just disagreements on policy!

5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

Dr. Elliott's Comment: This is an easy one. The Federal Reserve Act of 1913 created the Federal Reserve, and now the government owns many of the country’s largest banks via bailout money. Government control of private industry is just a polite way of saying FASCISM!!!!

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transportation in the hands of the state.

Dr. Elliott's Comment: The FAA, FCC, and the ICC (Interstate Commerce Commission) are all government entities that propose to regulate how we travel and what is said. There is nothing particularly disturbing about this now, but what about in the future? Could the government shut down communication or transportation for various people groups? Yes, they could pretty much do whatever they want. There is no competition here. There is no free market private entity as a choice. I thought the government made monopolies illegal? Oh, that's right they did, except for where they have a monopoly.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

Dr. Elliott's Comment: Recent events have made this one very disturbing. On June 9, 2011 President Obama signed into law Executive Order 13575 in which the intent is to seize greater power over "food, fiber, and energy." A great article explaining this was written by Raven Clabough and posted on the New American website.

8. Equal obligation of all to work and the establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

Dr. Elliott's Comment: Because of high inflation and higher taxes our society has been thrust into a dual income family at the minimum. In many instances both husband and wife have multiple jobs.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.

Dr. Elliott's Comment: I am not qualified to answer this question, as I don't really know of any combination of the two industries. In fact it seems what we have in this country is opposite as there seems to be a corralling of people into the urban areas. However, Executive Order 13575 mentioned in Plank 7 may be related to this.

10. Free education for all children in government schools and abolition of children's factory labor in its present form – combination of education with industrial production, etc.

Dr. Elliott's Comment: The public school system and the department of education indoctrinate our kids into the agenda that the federal government wants for our children. Both the national department of education and the state level departments of education adhere to an outcome based education model where excellence in not rewarded and lackluster performance is not dealt with in the proper manner so kids don't get their feelings hurt. The whole standard of "equalization" is drilled into our kids' heads through the public school system so by the time they graduate they are "socialized."

Full Story:
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=319117

Talking to the selling point for free universal health care, this screenie is taken from a pretty darn decent 1949 movie titled All the King's Men

   

The propaganda "Free Healthcare" is oh so very misleading. Obamacare will cost so much more. But that's really about the middle man. It could be cheaper if it was simply a group buy deal cutting out the middle man and with proper transparency and accountability in government spending and administration costs -- if people were truly on board with a group buy deal, but the bigger it is the harder it is to stop the machine from rolling once it gets started. Health Care is all fine and good Canada used to have a fairly good balanced system 20 odd years ago but like the US program it's a huge liability to people, like the CPP/Social Security plans (Ponzi schemes) which has basically been treated as a slush fund and handed over to banking interests to do with as they please.

[JazzRoc]

(07-05-2011 01:35 PM)pax681 Wrote:  Where i live... democratic elections, a Scottish Nationalist Government, we have Social healthcare and are VERY proud of the fact that people don't even have to pay a penny even for their prescription medicines. why do we have this? because we give a fuck about our own people.

Good on yer. IMO you're the best of the UK. Nil carborundum...

Following the thread, socialism devalues individual effort and corrupts itself. It has, however, laudable aims, such as care for the health and education of ALL children to adulthood. Capitalism, of course, has NO such direct aims, and is already corrupting to itself and any system it touches. It's such a prevalent "disease" that humanity is forced to live with it; like malaria and sickle-cell anemia.
Internal state power should devolve to community level - the size of such communities limited to the number of faces that most of us can put names to: between five and ten thousand.
External state power should be ceded to a UN with a more representative access to ALL communities. MIC !
Within such communities any exchange system will work if democratically agreed upon.
I'm for a digital online instant democratic system* undercutting a semi-permanent representative democracy with a truly temporary democracy, with tests to determine the strength of individual votes on a logical basis issue-by-issue. No regimes, cliques forming only temporarily, issue- or policy-based. No damn parties...
Oh, and yes, you must be able to check how the "dispassionate" computer works out its decisions. Transparency.

* Yes, you would need an identifying number, like a National Health Number.

[p4r4]

Quote:Fuel for debate and dissection. It's clear that Communism is being lumped in with Socialism but I still really haven't heard the big fundamental differences laid out to well.

Communism is a more specific form of socialism, the biggest difference would be that communism forces equality on everyone, a classless society without private ownership. Socialism is a general idea of economic efficiency that can be achieved by complete control of the economy or having a system of regulation in a more or less free market(communism or nationalism among others are just methods in achieving that socialistic goal). such efficiency is very hard to achieve, mostly due to lack of understanding and knowledge of all the complex factors involved in creating an efficient society. That's where capitalism is essential in creating the experience needed for us to digest and improve on, but that comes at great cost as capitalism is extremely inefficient...

All political institutions are socialistic in nature. Even if we get rid of the "government" we will still have mega corporation deciding social policies as current governments do, but in a more totalitarian way...