A Discussion About Being Born Into "sin"

[DHammer]

I thought this might still be of interest to some, we were talking about human's nature and how he is born into sin, regardless wether he likes it or not.
(underline = quote)
standvast wrote:

imagine you've just found a human that doesn't know "that".
me.
-now explain how the hell babies are born knowing what good/evil is , please.


"that" = the knowledge of good and evil ?
Well regardless, if you agree with it or not, if you think you know it or not, the Bible says you do.
As for the babies, they do know what g&e is ; this knowledge is probably stored in the inner man, the spirit man so they themselfs are not aware of it, until they grow up. I myself want answers reguarding this issue, wish I received some help with this, some knowledge, but it seems all I receive is questions questions and more questions.


Chessmuscle wrote:

God's ways are mysterious to YOU. Not everyone finds his word mysterious.


Are you some kind of super-human or do you claim to know God fully so that ALL His ways are known to you ?

Quote:Quote:
10 And he said, To morrow. And he said, Be it according to thy word: that thou mayest know that there is none like unto the LORD our God.

Quote:
"Thy way is, in the sea, and Thy path in the great waters, and Thy footsteps are not known." (Psalm 77:19)
Quote:
"Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it." (Psalm 139:6)
Quote:
"Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised; and His greatness is unsearchable." (Psalm 145:3)
Quote:
"Great is our LORD, and of great power: His understanding is infinite." (Psalm 147:5)
Quote:
There is no searching of His understanding." (Isaiah 40:27-28 )
Quote:
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!

Quote:Quote:

Yeah, they do really "look the same" , don't they?

Reguarding their innocence yes, do they not ? Many people compare babies to the initial state of Adam and Eve, that's what I meant.

Quote:-please explain any noteworthy difference between your
version of Adam's mind and that of a baby born today.

Babies are unconcious of what they are doing, while Adam was ? Babies hurt animals (thus they do evil i.e. hurt) while Adam didnt ? What do you think ?

Quote:Quote:


it was not only written by different authors,
the NT is like a revised edition,reformatted, with added/deleted sections,
in a different language, repeatedly translated, and remodelled from
various sources/scriptures/teachings.

Basically yes, the authors are different, but the true author is still God. That's what I meant ( I thought it was obvious ... ?)

Quote:Quote:

Either God evolved and brought man's mind along ,or vice versa.

I wouldn't say "evolve" because God does not change, but He DID unfold, or removed the curtain, and showed us how thinks really are. By sending Jesus He revealed to us that our heart is wicked and that we need to fix it. (just an example). Same goes with the law. The 10 commandments are merely the shadow of Christ, the law did not change, it's still the same ,but seen from another perspective. God showed us what true love means (Christ).

Quote:Quote:

-Show me a single verse from your Bible that mentions
men where once immortal IN FLESH

Adam and Eve could not be touched by the sword nor by the wave of the ocean etc . I think there was a verse about this ... anyways logic should be enough:
If God said we will die in the day we eat from the tree does that not mean we were not subject to death before we ate ? Also when God forbid Adam to ate from the tree of life so that he might have life eternal does that not mean he lost it when he ate ?

Quote:Quote:

You say it's "all litterally there in scripture" [my wording],
yet you talk about "figuring it out for yourself"..
figuring WHUT out? ,.it's all litterally there , right?

Think of a puzzle with some pieces that need to be put together. You do not need to write anything on them, nor modify them to fit your idea i.e. puzzle, all you need is to glue them together in the right manner so that you get an image. FIND OUT THE IMAGE (i.e. message) by STUDYING the word.

Quote:But then, dear Dhammer, did God create everything in this universe
except what humans percieve to be "evil" things?

the only thing God created was a perfect universe, with a perfect angelic being i.e. Lucifer, a perfect world i.e. Garden of Eden on Earth and the rest of the universe. What man has done to it, and what lucifer decided to do (become satan) is another thing.

Quote:Quote:

It also declares that the living things on Earth are ALL made by God , correct? would that not pretty much include litteral FRUIT TREES and SERPENTS?

Yes, your point ? Are you trying to say that for some reason serpents are evil? because they`re not ; it was merely the tool satan used .

[dhelwig]

Quote:
I thought this might still be of interest to some, we were talking about human's nature and how he is born into sin, regardless wether he likes it or not.
(underline = quote)
standvast wrote:

imagine you've just found a human that doesn't know "that".
me.
-now explain how the hell babies are born knowing what good/evil is , please.


"that" = the knowledge of good and evil ?
Well regardless, if you agree with it or not, if you think you know it or not, the Bible says you do.
As for the babies, they do know what g&e is ; this knowledge is probably stored in the inner man, the spirit man so they themselfs are not aware of it, until they grow up. I myself want answers reguarding this issue, wish I received some help with this, some knowledge, but it seems all I receive is questions questions and more questions.


Chessmuscle wrote:

God's ways are mysterious to YOU. Not everyone finds his word mysterious.


Are you some kind of super-human or do you claim to know God fully so that ALL His ways are known to you ?

Quote:Quote:
10 And he said, To morrow. And he said, Be it according to thy word: that thou mayest know that there is none like unto the LORD our God.

Quote:
"Thy way is, in the sea, and Thy path in the great waters, and Thy footsteps are not known." (Psalm 77:19)
Quote:
"Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it." (Psalm 139:6)
Quote:
"Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised; and His greatness is unsearchable." (Psalm 145:3)
Quote:
"Great is our LORD, and of great power: His understanding is infinite." (Psalm 147:5)
Quote:
There is no searching of His understanding." (Isaiah 40:27-28 )
Quote:
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!

Quote:Quote:

Yeah, they do really "look the same" , don't they?

Reguarding their innocence yes, do they not ? Many people compare babies to the initial state of Adam and Eve, that's what I meant.

Quote:-please explain any noteworthy difference between your
version of Adam's mind and that of a baby born today.

Babies are unconcious of what they are doing, while Adam was ? Babies hurt animals (thus they do evil i.e. hurt) while Adam didnt ? What do you think ?

Quote:Quote:


it was not only written by different authors,
the NT is like a revised edition,reformatted, with added/deleted sections,
in a different language, repeatedly translated, and remodelled from
various sources/scriptures/teachings.

Basically yes, the authors are different, but the true author is still God. That's what I meant ( I thought it was obvious ... ?)

Quote:Quote:

Either God evolved and brought man's mind along ,or vice versa.

I wouldn't say "evolve" because God does not change, but He DID unfold, or removed the curtain, and showed us how thinks really are. By sending Jesus He revealed to us that our heart is wicked and that we need to fix it. (just an example). Same goes with the law. The 10 commandments are merely the shadow of Christ, the law did not change, it's still the same ,but seen from another perspective. God showed us what true love means (Christ).

Quote:Quote:

-Show me a single verse from your Bible that mentions
men where once immortal IN FLESH

Adam and Eve could not be touched by the sword nor by the wave of the ocean etc . I think there was a verse about this ... anyways logic should be enough:
If God said we will die in the day we eat from the tree does that not mean we were not subject to death before we ate ? Also when God forbid Adam to ate from the tree of life so that he might have life eternal does that not mean he lost it when he ate ?

Quote:Quote:

You say it's "all litterally there in scripture" [my wording],
yet you talk about "figuring it out for yourself"..
figuring WHUT out? ,.it's all litterally there , right?

Think of a puzzle with some pieces that need to be put together. You do not need to write anything on them, nor modify them to fit your idea i.e. puzzle, all you need is to glue them together in the right manner so that you get an image. FIND OUT THE IMAGE (i.e. message) by STUDYING the word.

Quote:But then, dear Dhammer, did God create everything in this universe
except what humans percieve to be "evil" things?

the only thing God created was a perfect universe, with a perfect angelic being i.e. Lucifer, a perfect world i.e. Garden of Eden on Earth and the rest of the universe. What man has done to it, and what lucifer decided to do (become satan) is another thing.

Quote:Quote:

It also declares that the living things on Earth are ALL made by God , correct? would that not pretty much include litteral FRUIT TREES and SERPENTS?

Yes, your point ? Are you trying to say that for some reason serpents are evil? because they`re not ; it was merely the tool satan used .

Wow...there is alot of quote's in there...but I have failed to find your source of them...could you help me?

[standvast]

That would be me, Ireland rocket.
The name's standvast.

peace'.

Dhammer, i'm done with this,
nothing of the essence of my words is conveyed to you,
it seems to me like you purposely dodge any challenge.

you say:

Quote:I myself want answers reguarding this issue, wish I received some help with this, some knowledge, but it seems all I receive is questions questions and more questions.

and sadly, you still do not comprehend that the more knowledge/wisdom you attain, the more you realise the infinite plethora of questions you will
never have satisfactory answers to.

peace'
standvast.

[DHammer]

Quote:and sadly, you still do not comprehend that the more knowledge/wisdom you attain, the more you realise the infinite plethora of questions you will
never have satisfactory answers to.

Depends, there's a knowledge that can quench your spiritual thirst forever. This is only satan-related because what he can offer cannot possibly satisfy us, ever. It's like eating, you might feel full but in a few hours you'll need more to quench your hunger. Same goes with wisdom, or knowledge. satan will never satisfy you no matter how much knowledge you receive trough meditation channeling etc, remember that Buddha died seeking more light, he himself couldn't quench his thirst. BUT (!) Jesus did, He said he`s the light itself, and that, if we are born again in His kingdom we will be forever satsfied, and live IN (spiritually ofc) Him. THIS is the difference between the Bible/Jesus/and the true God, and the other religions.

Quote:it seems to me like you purposely dodge any challenge.

what where when ? Please do not hesitate to state those "challenges" again so I can answer as best as I know and share the little I got :)

Quote:purposely

Why in the world would I do that ? Do you smell a conspiracy ? Do you think I plan to spread a lie ? What motives would I have to deceive you ? If I can't answer a question I will simply say that I don't know, as I did with the "babies"

[standvast]

Quote:""remember that Buddha died seeking more light, he himself couldn't quench his thirst. BUT (!) Jesus did, He said he`s the light itself, and that, if we are born again in His kingdom we will be forever satsfied, and live IN (spiritually ofc) Him.

-what [Buddha] are you even talking about?

Quote:""THIS is the difference between the Bible/Jesus/and the true God, and the other religions""

-there is no competition,.. in my understanding Buddhism is not "a religion".

Quote:""purposely

Why in the world would I do that ? ""

-to keep your "faith" safe ? ,..damned if i know.

peace'
standvast.

[DHammer]

this one ofcourse


damn he`s ugly

[saunatonttu]

From what I know about buddhism it isn't a religion (atleast compared to christianity) - it's a morale and a psychology and first of all an effort to ascend to a higher state of consciousness. And that's the one and only thing that really matters!

There are no false doctrines like sin,heaven or hell, returning Messiahs or other such BS in buddhism.

The buddhist terminology is of course very symbolic but I think buddhist doctrines like reincarnation over and over again to attain enlightenment and eventually Nirvana are things that will eventually be proven by science. Maybe not even in the next thousand years, but eventually. We certainly won't see SIN or heaven and hell proven by science. They're not according to the way the universe works and therefore irrational and plain STUPID.

Just my 2 cents for ya.

[standvast]

@saunatonttu

Thanks, i think your views are well considered.

@Dhammer,

excuse me for being short with you last post,
but from my end this discussion seems to head nowhere..

Do you know who is depicted by the jade statue in the picture you posted?
any answer other than "buddha"?

should we just drop this or do you want to be entertained?

Do you understand Buddha is not a God? , or a son of God?
Do you know the Buddhist saying: "he who prays TO the buddha goes straight to hell"
Do you understand it's a joke in all it's seriousness? Buddhist don't believe in hell, litterally.
Can you comprehend what it means?

Here's another Waking man:



and another:



and another:





peace'
standvast.

[DHammer]

Quote:- it's a morale and a psychology and first of all an effort to ascend to a higher state of consciousness. And that's the one and only thing that really matters!

As long as it involves terms such as "spirit" and "raised conciousness" or whatever fancy word you like to pick, it's a religion. You cannot prove it scientifically, therefor it's a belief. Same goes with the evolution theory, it's a religion, no one has actually witnesed the creation of the universe.

Quote:Buddhism teaches that anyone can become awakened and experience Nirvana

taken from wikipedia, that statement alone makes it a religion, I for one don't believe in this thing called "nirvana". Same goes for reincarnation.

Quote:and eventually Nirvana are things that will eventually be proven by science.

i find that to be very unlikely:)

Quote:They're not according to the way the universe works and therefore irrational and plain STUPID.

How come ? Do you have any facts to back that up ? Please prove to me that's the way things are, with proof, not your wild speculation or likes/opinions. standvast I fail to see how stating : " (talks about heaven and hell) and therefore irration and plain STUPID" is well a considered statement but whatever.

Quote:Do you know who is depicted by the jade statue in the picture you posted?
any answer other than "buddha"?

google'd "buddha" and that's what I got. if it's on the internet, it must be true ! but seriously are there more than one buddhas or something? :blink:

[standvast]

"but seriously are there more than one buddhas or something?" :blink:

A Buddha is someone who has achieved enlightenment, the most famous and important being Gautama Buddha , so yes.

[DHammer]

a I see what you mean, well I was referring to THE buddha :)

I suppose the same goes for Christ ? (from your p.o.v.)

[saunatonttu]

Quote:

Quote:- it's a morale and a psychology and first of all an effort to ascend to a higher state of consciousness. And that's the one and only thing that really matters!

As long as it involves terms such as "spirit" and "raised conciousness" or whatever fancy word you like to pick, it's a religion. You cannot prove it scientifically, therefor it's a belief. Same goes with the evolution theory, it's a religion, no one has actually witnesed the creation of the universe.

Quote:Buddhism teaches that anyone can become awakened and experience Nirvana

taken from wikipedia, that statement alone makes it a religion, I for one don't believe in this thing called "nirvana". Same goes for reincarnation.

Quote:and eventually Nirvana are things that will eventually be proven by science.

i find that to be very unlikely:)

Quote:They're not according to the way the universe works and therefore irrational and plain STUPID.

How come ? Do you have any facts to back that up ? Please prove to me that's the way things are, with proof, not your wild speculation or likes/opinions. standvast I fail to see how stating : " (talks about heaven and hell) and therefore irration and plain STUPID" is well a considered statement but whatever.

Quote:Do you know who is depicted by the jade statue in the picture you posted?
any answer other than "buddha"?

google'd "buddha" and that's what I got. if it's on the internet, it must be true ! but seriously are there more than one buddhas or something? :blink:

Well, my post was again just my own conjecture. But I can not deny that my world view has been influenced a lot by ET-contactee Billy Meier. And it wouldn't have if I didn't find him very credible.

I'm not going to get into semantics with you.

There are already books written about reincarnation, have a look at Ian Stevenson's book "Children Who Remember Previous Lives, A Question of Reincarnation". True, it hasn't been proven scientifically, but I think it's more a matter of whether it CAN be proven by science or not when we have the technology. And you can not scientifically prove things that are not real.
This is my own conjecture again, I do not think it's possible to prove _anything_ with a link on the internet (which is all that can be provided here):rolleyes:

Have a look at what Meier has to say about the reincarnation cycle, god (of the bible), Jesus (or Jmmanuel) and human life in the universe in general. You should have no problem looking at the material given that your faith is obviously so strong.



I dare you to.

[rockclimber]

Heavy

Of course I'm on Dhammers side.

On a side note did I hear someone mention that Buhdism is not a relgion? If not, what the hell does it qualify as?

From Merriam-Webster

Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
- re·li·gion·less adjective

[saunatonttu]

Quote:Heavy

Of course I'm on Dhammers side.

On a side note did I hear someone mention that Buhdism is not a relgion? If not, what the hell does it qualify as?

From Merriam-Webster

Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
- re·li·gion·less adjective

Well, I guess a better description would be the that it's the one religion that's closest to the truth.

[standvast]

Rockclimber said:

""on a side note did I hear someone mention that Buhdism is not a relgion? If not, what the hell does it qualify as?""

In my mind, Buddhism is a [personal] practical philosophy.

peace'
standvast.