Gap Among Jews Widens On Question Of Zionism

[byrd]

a good friend of mine bought this guys book, jewish opposition to zionism, i think its called. hes a professor in montreal. its a really good book. i havent read it all, just skimmed through. but here is a great article from him..

Quote:A profound division has developed between Zionist advocates of Israel and Jews, secular and religious, who reject or question Zionism and actions taken by the state of Israel. Public debate about Israel's place in Jewish continuity has become open and candid.

Many Jews try to come to terms with the contradictions between the Judaism they profess to adhere to and the Zionist ideology that has taken hold of them. This coincides with serious concerns expressed across Israel's political and religious spectrum about the future of Israel.

Quite a few Jews now publicly ask whether the chronically besieged ethnic nation-state in the Middle East is "good for the Jews." Many continue to be concerned that militant Zionism destroys Jewish moral values and endangers Jews in Israel and elsewhere. This debate has entered pop culture as well: The recent film Munich by Steven Spielberg sharply focuses on the moral cost of Israel's chronic reliance on force.

The Israel lobby in the United States, aligned with the nationalist right in Israel, viciously attacked the Jewish director and his film even before it was released. It also lashed out at several books published over the past few years - Prophets Outcast, Wrestling With Zion, The Question of Zion, The Myths of Zionism - all authored by Jews who are concerned about the same essential conflict between Zionism and Jewish values.

continued..
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?con...icle&code=M. 20070309&articleId=5024

[mothandrust]

byrd, thought i'd bring your quote below over here 'cos the topic seems more relevant:

Quote:that talmud is one sick piece of literature. prepare yourself..

yeah, i'd already sussed that - twisted and scary too. although reading between the lines of Dilling's diatribe, it seems to me, Talmud thinking bears similarity to Gnosticism (as well as Paganism and Hinduism), so don't want to dismiss it out of hand. She comes across as a rather rabid Jew hating, Marxist hating (orthodox) Christian fundamentalist - hardly a position from which to offer a balanced perspective.

do you (or does anyone) know if there is a more balanced commentary on the Talmud out there?

an equally important question is, to what extent is the Talmud followed within influential Jewish circles these days? After all, it could just be a rather embarrassing snapshot of the past - lots of religions, if not all, have some of that.

[grell]

Here is another article on the talmud, although not entirely unbiased it should give you some more insight into what is actually contained in there.

http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html

Quote:Penalty for Disobeying Rabbis

Erubin 21b. Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell.

Hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God

Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (gentile) hits a Jew, the gentile must be killed.

O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews

Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.

Jews Have Superior Legal Status

Baba Kamma 37b. "If an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite...the payment is to be in full."

Jews May Steal from Non-Jews

Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object lost by a gentile ("heathen") it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b). Sanhedrin 76a. God will not spare a Jew who "marries his daughter to an old man or takes a wife for his infant son or returns a lost article to a Cuthean..."

Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews

Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a gentile ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.

Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel."

Jews May Lie to Non-Jews

Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies ("subterfuges") to circumvent a Gentile.

Non-Jewish Children are Sub-Human

Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.

Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.

Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows.

Insults Against Blessed Mary

Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.

Gloats over Christ Dying Young

A passage from Sanhedrin 106 gloats over the early age at which Jesus died: "Hast thou heard how old Balaam (Jesus) was?--He replied: It is not actually stated but since it is written, Bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days it follows that he was thirty-three or thirty-four years old."

[byrd]

yea i hadnt even read any from that 1st lady. just thought id throw that comment out there.

but, look to ted pike for info on this. he has a few books pointing out the inflammatory passages in the Talmud. sorry i dont know the book titles, just heard him mention this a few times on the few radio shows i heard him on with DBS.

the Torah seems to be the real peaceful book of worship. the Talmud seems to be more sick supremacy shit. explaining how non jews are like cattle, and how its ok to have sex with children. etc.

heres another link http://www.come-and-hear.com/editor/america_2.html

i havent read the whole thing, just a bit...but this part deals with the 'sex with children' aspect of it.

[mothandrust]

more reading - when will it ever stop???

fantastic info though

[byrd]

and yea, that one grell just posted sheds some light on the hatred and racism that follows that book. its pretty fucked up once you really start lookin at it.

[byrd]

haha i know, there is certainly lots of info regarding this whole topic. its too much to take in, thats why i try to settle on one aspect. but its easy to get on to another one.

its a lotta shit man, and its demented sick shit too. hard on the head sometimes. but good to know too.

[mothandrust]

sorry man, seemed to of hijacked your thread a bit - just feeling rather shell-shocked by the Talmud, and the Dilling book. Truth be told i'd hardly ever considered a Zionist Communist link (although i was aware Einstein had such sympathies) - not sure how much truth there is in it but i can see a kind of logic here, linking it with Gnosticism and self empowerment (perhaps not so much the Talmud, but the philosophy behind it, linking it back to mother earth, like Hinduism (and Paganism)).

All that lying and stealing and having sex with kids was more likely an excuse for the Pharisees, and their cohorts - the money changers. and in modern day an excuse for Jew haters to rant.

perhaps though, getting back to your original post, this split is between the egalitarian, socialist Jews who see us all as human (Chomsky, Einstein, Marx...) and the Talmud, elitist Jews who see people, beyond their (fictitious) master race, as animals (Churchill, Rothschild, Gurion... ).