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deathstickboy · 06-13-2007, 03:21 AM

Quote:Proof of things CREATED perhaps, yes?

The story of jesus is as much a creation of man as astrology. That doesn't mean it isn't "real", since it does exist on the mental plane and in the consiousness of a billion or so living human beings. That doesn't mean there isn't some truth to it. But the bible is not infallible, nor is your interpretation of it. That is a matter of faith, and of belief, which cannot be proven.

Quote:Wait no, no...this thread told me again, it really wants to die.

I prophesy, that in 3 days, it will be ressurected....

standvast · (This post was last modified: 06-16-2007 09:25 PM by standvast.)

Thy prophecy has been fullfilled Oh manchild of the lifeless branch!
rejoice , verily i say unto you ; "things never truly die "

And on that note;
"inspired " by some remarks of Dhammer i started wondering
whether love for this Life and this world [whether seen as a set reality or not]
and working towards "the afterlife in heaven" as any good Christian should do,
contradict or perhaps even mutually exclude oneanother.

I figured this is not the case, as i believe working with life, creating,
protecting the intrinsic value of it and striving to harmonize life, by not ignorantly
intervening in matters that should be left to Universal law /Nature/God [take your pick],
transcends any one reality or realm and would thus be both ; good to this world and responsible to the next.
In the example Dhammer gave where he equates love for this world with debauchery and
self-indulgence, i can understand how that would go against the virtuous path leading to the next life,
but i think that to equate a profound [Agape] love for all life [in THIS WORLD/reality / universe]
to the lowest possible behavioral traits witnessed in man is uninsightfull.
Why would a man be judged by his works in this world if they where in vain ?
Was not every saint, holy man , or messiah revered for the works done in this world,
even if that work was to teach people of the preparations for the next world , ?

anyone want to give their take on this , i'd love some perspective..

peace'

~~SerialExpLain~~ · 06-16-2007, 08:57 PM

Quote:Anyways, what I said can be proven, you are the one hanging onto a belief.

So they say, again and again. Must be the Zeitgeist.

I do not believe that to be THE WORD; as THE WORD warns about that and is so remarkable how everything is covered.

Watch vids by: Michael Heiser, Ph.D. He has the answers to debunk the Jesus Is Biggest Hoax Ever thread, that for some perverse reason keeps rearing its ugly head.

* * *

Standvast: What would you suggest a 'spiritual' person in this world do? Limit others religious freedoms?

standvast · 06-16-2007, 09:16 PM

Quote:Standvast: What would you suggest a 'spiritual' person in this world do? Limit others religious freedoms?

No, not at all,
I wouldn't know how to limit another persons mental concepts, constructs, convictions,
unless i had access to mass persuasion techniques, and a will to control other people.
Let me counter with a question ; Do you think living rightious [in your idea of it] in
accordance to how you believe, a Christian in preperation for the next world , makes one also act
responsible and in harmony with this world/reality, or are these modes mutually exclusive to you?
I suggest a "spiritual " person in this world/percieved reality or any other
works for the advancement of all humanity or life as a whole through his/her true self.
I do not mean self in any egotistical, egomaniacle manner, but as the source of life in all.

peace'

~~SerialExpLain~~ · 06-16-2007, 09:33 PM

I believe that no man is without sin. From there, it is not if you sin, but during a lifetime how you come to view the things that tempted your sinful nature. If you are truly repentant that is what is important. That does not mean you won't sin again, it means that you are aware that it is something you really don't want to be engulfed by and that is where prayer comes in. As long as a man walks this planet, he will be tempted, sin, repent, be forgiven, be saved. That is the promise THE SAVIOR made.

I think the Catholic Church failed miserably in the fast-food drive through style confession and absolution biz.

I believe all that is required to enter the Kingdom is to have a conscience. If you have a conscience you will do well by others as you will have empathy and compassion. With those qualities you will naturally seek to help life and not harm life. There will be something internal that simply won't let you do certain things, you simply cannot do them. You would rather die yourself than do them.

But not everybody will be on that path, that is also a truth.

standvast · 06-16-2007, 09:45 PM

Quote:I believe all that is required to enter the Kingdom is to have a conscience. If you have a conscience you will do well by others as you will have empathy and compassion. With those qualities you will naturally seek to help life and not harm life. There will be something internal that simply won't let you do certain things, you simply cannot do them. You would rather die yourself than do them.

Thanks alot for your response, this reply makes up for a lot of the times i can't follow you :biggrin: j/k
no seriously;i like the way you put it and i hope you do not mind that i'll take it as an affirmation
of my question; Living consciously, with empathy, towards truth in this life, conincides well with
preparing for the next worldfe/transcendence.

On a sidenote, do you find my approach in disrespect or limiting of anothers beliefs ?
or do you think i believe certain forms of religion should be abandoned?
as you asked "Standvast: What would you suggest a 'spiritual' person in this world do? Limit others religious freedoms? "

Quote:But not everybody will be on that path, that is also a truth.

agreed.

peace'

~~SerialExpLain~~ · 06-17-2007, 12:08 AM

:biggrin:

Quote:On a sidenote, do you find my approach in disrespect or limiting of anothers beliefs ?
or do you think i believe certain forms of religion should be abandoned?
as you asked "Standvast: What would you suggest a 'spiritual' person in this world do? Limit others religious freedoms? "

Nah, Standvast...I think a lot of times you get the brunt of my reactions to DSB, lol.

Peace.

***Shinobi*** · 06-17-2007, 09:09 AM

Is anyone denying Jesus existed ?
The hoax thing is funny
and I have already spoken to hbnwok about this before
what exactly is the hoax ? when such a person really did walk the earth
I think this thread was a silly outburst to be honest
times like this I would have expected a Chessmuscle to come along
and a standvast to engage in deep conversation..
damn I really miss the old forum man!

standvast · (This post was last modified: 06-17-2007 10:01 AM by standvast.)

Quote:Is anyone denying Jesus existed ?

Yeah if not here, there are plenty.
I'm agnostic about it, as i simply can't say for sure,
but then again i don't place much importance on the person.
Comparitive study does point at an unmistakable basis of evidence for
the key characteristics of "jesus" being older and borrowed from elsewhere.
Does this deface the image of "Jesus"> ? no i don't think so,
if you believe in Jesus, you believe in his message , and view
him whether a flesh and blood person or a metaphorical construct,
as the medium to deliver a message from the source "God"/father.
..it's not about the messenger according to his own teachings.
"Jesus" never asked to be prayed to as far as i know from my personal interpretation,
it was the latter "Holy" Roman church that used his image as a tool,
and taught people to revere the image, instead of the body of thought / spirit.

Quote:The hoax thing is funny
and I have already spoken to hbnwok about this before
what exactly is the hoax ? when such a person really did walk the earth

I have yet to see the proof of 1 actual person being Jesus having existed,
but i can live fine with the idea of great teachers appearing in all ages,
embodying spirit and dedicating their worldly life to showing others there is
an underlying principle to creation , which we are connected and responsible to.

Quote:I think this thread was a silly outburst to be honest
times like this I would have expected a Chessmuscle to come along
and a standvast to engage in deep conversation..

I think the thread was an attempt to trigger debate, i enjoyed Rawgoatsmilk's
idea on bacteria being our forefather and quite pervasive enough to be considered
"life surrounding us all" [even in "space"?] so i think the thread did live up to some of it's intended purpose :wink:
Madz you know i enjoyed the talks with Chess as much as he or you did, perhaps i'll
see if i can't send him an email , and request him to drop in sometime,
but in the meantime.. let others step up where we left off, discussing either
personal beliefs or interpretations of whatever subject can aid us all,; a broader perspective.

Quote:damn I really miss the old forum man!

I'm passed that, most of what shaped it is still present,
added some great new folks, take away some ,
we need to realise what we have in front of us , :smile:
think of what you loved about the old boards and manifest it here.

peace'

***Shinobi*** · 06-17-2007, 10:30 AM

I love you man lol thanks.

~~SerialExpLain~~ · (This post was last modified: 06-17-2007 11:09 AM by SerialExpLain.)

Standvast, Michael Heiser, Ph.D. would be in disagreement with you on your historical perspective.
Are you familiar with his work? If so, could you comment on that.

Also, I believe Ted Pike could shed some light.

In addition, this link is rather substantive:

http://www.redmoonrising.com/Giza/DomDec6.htm

Again, I too miss the old forum. There was a separate section for Bible-Christianity and there were many Bible believing Christians there then.

Perhaps, if Jesus is such a controversial topic, instead of mocking believers, you could expound on your beliefs, as there are obviously so many interesting things on the agenda - what with 6 billion dollar collider projects, and individuals who admit to a past working on star-war projects ushering in paridigm shifts based on the ruination of the magnetic field and Schumann resonance.

Obviously, it is a golden age for New Atlanteans. But there is still time to mock Bible believing Christians, interesting priorities.

***Shinobi*** · 06-17-2007, 10:57 AM

I was aiming for that the other day Serial
I thinks we need to get a seperate section just for that
Standy is on the case methinks..hopefully
would be nice though

standvast · 06-17-2007, 11:02 AM

Quote:Again, I too miss the old forum. There was a separate section for Bible-Christianity apart from Gnostic-Agnostic, etc.

Why is that so important love?
If you want to keep a thread / discussion based in what you percieve as Biblical
Christian perspective, you could just make one with an opening post stating the intended purpose.
i promise i won't bother you with my eclectic comparitive sidesteps and will even see to it
that others respect your wishes, to disect/approach from the angle you choose, and not
to get off topic , or just drop in to say "Jesus is the sun",.. how's that?

I think to seperate the two in ones own mind is fine, but as discussion topics on
a conspiracy board , best believe to most they seem to overlap oneanother.

Quote:Standvast, Michael Heiser, Ph.D. would be in disagreement with you on you're dates a bit.

Are you familiar with his work. If so, could you comment on that.

I'm not aware of determining dates, i don't even have a single envisioned version of events,
I'm not familiar with Heiser beyond having heard of him, but since you've named him thrice now,
i feel somewhat obliged to check him out,. will comment in due time.

At your referal i watched 2 Ted Pike vids, i gave you my take on one about Judaism/Israel before.
I suppose i don't have to explain how his perspective seems a bit skewed in my perception.

peace'

~~SerialExpLain~~ · (This post was last modified: 06-17-2007 11:20 AM by SerialExpLain.)

Quote:Why is that so important love?

Because, there are times when one does not want to swim against such a strong tide. :wink:

Quote:If you want to keep a thread / discussion based in what you percieve as Biblical
Christian perspective, you could just make one with an opening post stating the intended purpose.
i promise i won't bother you with my eclectic comparitive sidesteps and will even see to it
that others respect your wishes, to disect/approach from the angle you choose, and not
to get off topic , or just drop in to say "Jesus is the sun",.. how's that?

Yeay! Very happy Standvast, thanks.

Quote:I think to seperate the two in ones own mind is fine, but as discussion topics on
a conspiracy board , best believe to most they seem to overlap oneanother

That is something after all this time, noone has reached a consensus on though, maybe someday.

deathstickboy · 06-17-2007, 05:04 PM

Quote:Thy prophecy has been fullfilled Oh manchild of the lifeless branch!
rejoice , verily i say unto you ; "things never truly die "

:biggrin:

Quote:And on that note;
"inspired " by some remarks of Dhammer i started wondering
whether love for this Life and this world [whether seen as a set reality or not]
and working towards "the afterlife in heaven" as any good Christian should do,
contradict or perhaps even mutually exclude oneanother.

I figured this is not the case, as i believe working with life, creating,
protecting the intrinsic value of it and striving to harmonize life, by not ignorantly
intervening in matters that should be left to Universal law /Nature/God [take your pick],
transcends any one reality or realm and would thus be both ; good to this world and responsible to the next.
In the example Dhammer gave where he equates love for this world with debauchery and
self-indulgence, i can understand how that would go against the virtuous path leading to the next life,
but i think that to equate a profound [Agape] love for all life [in THIS WORLD/reality / universe]
to the lowest possible behavioral traits witnessed in man is uninsightfull.
Why would a man be judged by his works in this world if they where in vain ?
Was not every saint, holy man , or messiah revered for the works done in this world,
even if that work was to teach people of the preparations for the next world , ?

anyone want to give their take on this , i'd love some perspective..

peace'

I think you've got the right idea. The reason for this apparent dichotomy in Dhammer's reasoning, and that of other christians, boils down to the christian obsession with the concept of "sin", IMO.
Afterall, any desire that isn't "in service to God" (whatever that is) seems to constitute a sin. You don't even actually have to do it, just thinking about it still counts as a sin, they are eager to tell you.
This mentality, combined with a few other cherry picked verses (love not the world, ect) leaves christians with that pervasive and necrotic view of the world as a spiritually dead savage jungle of debauchery and sin, which has been such a destructive force in western culture for over 1000 years.
This is not the case for all christians, by any means, and I would say that that it a view heavily promoted by the church, especially the Catholic Church. Guilt and fear based mind control is the product.
The fundamental attitude that nature is spiritually dead also formed the basis for the fundamentalist materialist doctrine of "modern science".
To quote a bible verse in contrast "Ye shall know them by their fruits".
:wink:

Quote:
Quote:Anyways, what I said can be proven, you are the one hanging onto a belief.

So they say, again and again. Must be the Zeitgeist.

I do not believe that to be THE WORD; as THE WORD warns about that and is so remarkable how everything is covered.

Watch vids by: Michael Heiser, Ph.D. He has the answers to debunk the Jesus Is Biggest Hoax Ever thread, that for some perverse reason keeps rearing its ugly head.

I thought faith was the basis of Christianity? Why do you have to prove it? What makes you think you can?
Also, isn't it somewhat of an insult to christ's message to claim you have a monopoly on the correct interpretation? You say THE WORD, as if it is written in stone and there is only one interpretation of it. You insist that the bible must be infact a literal and historical story, when it doesn't have to be in order to remain worthwhile as a religious or spiritual text.

The real issue, is your insistence that you, and the church, have correctly interpreted the bible.

All religions "cover every angle" so christianity is hardly amazing in that right, and even that still comes down to interpretation. Because you can interpret certain passages to mean certain things, even though they may not actually mean what you claim, you thusly assert that your ideas are proven based on scripture.

Can you not see the inherent flaw in this logic?

The difference between us is simply that I can accept the possibility that what you believe could be true, but you refuse to extend the same courtesy and skepticism to my beliefs. You also seem to refuse to even acknowledge that your beliefs are just that, beliefs.

Quote:Nah, Standvast...I think a lot of times you get the brunt of my reactions to DSB, lol.

Peace.

Perhaps in the future you could maybe try to meet me halfway with understanding, rather than reacting in an adversarial way to whatever it is you think I said. :content:

Its a common problem in human communication, this reactive response attitude.....