Holocaust Analysis

[icosaface]

I don't know how many people were murdered in the second world war. I was around in the 1970's when the authorities decided to sequester all the documents pertaining to prison camps so that no one could do anymore research. The reason given was that it was upsetting to the survivors.

The authorities used the same edict for curtailing analysis and discussions of 911.

[SirBustaBear]

The Gas Chambers: “One Proof – Just One Proof”

Deniers, led by Faurisson, repeatedly call for “one proof . . . one single proof” of the existence of homicidal gas chambers. (7) They dismiss the reliability of all human testimony, whether it came from the SS, surviving inmates, or Sonderkommando members. They do so despite the fact that regarding the general details of gassings, the testimony of all the parties tends to corroborate each other. (8) Pressac’s monumental study of the gas chambers is, in essence, a response to this demand for documentary proof. Pressac’s sensitivity to Faurisson’s demand for documents may be rooted in the fact that he almost was lured into denial and it was his own archival investigation which proved to him that Faurisson was consciously ignoring unequivocal evidence of homicidal gas chambers. On a trip to Auschwitz shortly after he met Faurisson, he was shown a series of documents that constituted far more than “the one single proof” upon which deniers insisted. On subsequent visits he discovered additional documents, some of which were previously unpublished. Since the publication of his book in 1989, he has spent time in former Soviet archives and has uncovered additional documents that demonstrate the absolute falsehood of the deniers’ claims that there is no material or documentary proof of gas chambers.

The next few pages contain a brief summary of Pressac’s extensive findings. Those who have found the deniers’ claims about gas chambers the least bit troubling should have their doubts set aside. Those who have never been persuaded in the least by this assault on the truth will find the documents overwhelming proof of the degree to which the deniers distort history and lie about the evidence. These documents include work orders, supply requisitions, time sheets, engineering instructions, invoices, and completion reports. All clearly indicate that the gas chambers were to be used for nothing but homicidal gassings. The company contracted to design and install the execution chambers was Topf and Sons. Much of the documentation comes from reports they, their subcontractors, and civilian employees submitted to the SS. They generally made it appear as if they were building morgues. But they slipped up often enough to provide us with detailed documentation of the construction and installation of homicidal killing units.

• An inventory of equipment installed in Crematorium III called for the installation of one gas door and fourteen showers. These two items were absolutely incompatible one with the other. A gas-tight door could only be used for a gas chamber. Why would a room that functioned as a shower room need a gas-tight door? (9)

• Pressac, not content with this simple proof that this was not a shower room, calculated the area covered by a single shower head. He used the genuine shower installations in the reception building as a guideline. On the basis of this calculation, Crematorium III, which had a floor space of 210 square meters, should have had at least 115 shower heads, not fourteen. (10)

• On the inventory drawings, the water pipes are not connected to the showers themselves. Were these genuine showers the water pipes would have been connected.

• In certain gas chambers the wooden bases to which the shower heads were attached are still visible in the ruins of the building. (11) A functioning shower head would not have been connected to a wooden base.

• In a letter of January 29, 1943, SS Captain Bischoff, head of the Auschwitz Waffen-SS and Police Central Construction Management, wrote to an SS major general in Berlin regarding the progress of work on Crematorium II. In his letter he referred to Vergasungskeller (gassing cellar). (12) Butz and Faurisson tried to reinterpret the term Vergasung. (13) Butz’s explanation was that it meant gas generation. Faurisson argued that it meant carburetion and that Vergasungskeller designated the room in the basement “where the ‘gaseous’ mixture to fuel the crematorium furnace was prepared.” (14) There are fundamental problems with this explanation. Not only is there a significant amount of documentation which refers to gassing but, more importantly, the cremation furnaces were coke fired and did not use gas generation. (15)

• Pressac found a time sheet in which a civilian worker had written that a room in the western part of Crematorium IV was a “Gaskammer” (gas chamber). Faurisson, in need of proof that this was something other than what it said, suggested that these were “disinfection gas chambers.” How he reached this conclusion, especially when he had determined that Vergasungskeller meant “gas generation,” was left unexplained. (16)

• On February 13, 1943, an order was placed by the Waffen-SS and Police Central Construction Management for twelve gasdichten Türen (gas-tight doors) for Crematoria IV and V. (17) * According to the files in the Auschwitz Museum the work on this order was completed on the 25th of February. On February 28, according to the daily time sheets submitted by the civilian contractors, the gastight shutters were fitted (Gasdichtefenster versetzten) and installed. (18) A time sheet of March 2, 1943, submitted by the same firm for work conducted on Crematorium IV, contained the following entry: “concrete floor in gas chamber.” The information on this work order and these two time sheets, when analyzed as a whole, indicate that on March 2, 1943, civilian employees of a German firm officially designated a room in Crematorium IV as a “gas chamber.” (19) It made absolute sense for them to do so because two days earlier they had installed “gastight shutters” in the same room. (20)

* Because the dimensions of the “doors” were thirty by forty centimeters, Pressac hypothesizes that they were probably shutters rather than doors

• A telegram of February 26, 1943, sent by an SS second lieutenant to one of the firms involved in the construction of the gas chambers, requested the immediate dispatch of “ten gas detectors.” The detectors were to be used to check the efficiency of the ventilation system in the gas chamber. (21)

• In a book containing the record of work carried out by the metal workshops for the construction and the maintenance of Birkenau Crematorium II, there is an order dated March 5, 1943, requesting the making of “one handle for a gas[tight] door.” (22)

• In a letter of March 6, 1943, a civilian employee working on the construction of Crematorium II referred to modifying the air extraction system of “Auskleidekeller [undressing cellar] II”. A normal morgue would have no use for such a facility. (23) During March 1943 there were at least four additional references to “Auskleidekeller.” It is telling that civilians who, according to the deniers, had been brought to Birkenau in January 1943 to work on “underground morgues” repeatedly referred not to morgues but to the ventilation of the “undressing cellars.” (24)

• In the same letter the employee asked about the possibility of preheating the areas that would be used as the gas chamber. But a morgue should not be preheated. It should be kept cool. However, if the room were to function as a gas chamber, then the warmer the temperature the faster the Zyklon-B pellets would vaporize. (25)

• A letter dated March 31, 1943, signed by SS Major Bischoff, contained a reference to an order of March 6, 1943, for a “gas [tight] door” for Crematorium II. It was to be fitted with a rubberized sealing strip and a peephole for inspection. Why would a morgue or a disinfection chamber need a peephole? It certainly was not necessary in order to watch cadavers or lice. There were also references in the Crematorium III work orders for gastight doors and for iron bars and fittings for gastight doors. The deniers, still clinging to their “morgue” theory, claimed that morgues needed gastight doors to prevent odors and infectious germs from spreading. They also claimed the doors were necessary because the morgues were disinfected with Zyklon-B. This is a charge that, as indicated above, contradicts basic science, since Zyklon-B is an insecticide and not a disinfectant. This argument still leaves them scrambling for an explanation of why fourteen shower heads, none of which were connected to a plumbing system, were necessary for a morgue. (26)

• The inventory of Crematorium II, prepared when the civil firm had completed the conversions on it, contained references to it being fitted with a Gastür and a Gasdichtetür (gastight door).

• A letter of March 31, 1943, regarding Crematorium III spoke of it having a Gastür, a gas door. Deniers are quick to argue that this could mean many things. But the inventory attached to the handover documents for the crematorium makes short shrift of this argument. The list states that it had a Gasdichtetür, a “gastight door.” One could possibly argue about the meaning of Gastür, but it is hard to squabble over a gastight door. (27)

The deniers also contended that Birkenau was designed to serve as a quarantine and hospital camp, not a death camp. They based their argument on architectural drawings of April 1943, which contained plans for a barracks for sick prisoners, a prisoners hospital, and a quarantine section. Why, they ask, would the Nazis build a health camp but a few hundred yards from gas chambers where people were being annihilated on a massive scale? All this, they assert, indicates that Birkenau was not built as a place of homicide and annihilation. (28) ** But there exists another official drawing of an overall plan of Birkenau, completed approximately a year later. It reveals that Birkenau was anything but a benign hospital unit. The first set of plans, completed in April 1943, described a camp that would house 16,600 prisoners. The drawings a year later show a camp that housed 60,000 prisoners and contained less than half of the planned barracks from the preceding year’s plans. The existing barracks housed four times as many people as indicated by the original drawings. Any suggestion of this being a place of healing is contradicted by these conditions. (29)

** The traditional notation of who had actually done the drawing and who had signed off on it is chilling in both its ordinariness and extraordinariness. THe drawing was completed by prisoner 63003 (whose name remains unknown) on March 23, 1944. We know that it was reviewed by a civilian worker named Techmann and approved the next day by SS Lieutenant Werner Jothan.

These references to gas chambers and this plan of the camp constitute the kind of proof the deniers claim to be seeking. There is, of course, a myriad of additional documentation regarding deportations, murders, supplies of Zyklon-B, and other aspects of the Final Solution. I mention them not as proof of the Nazi annihilation of the Jews but as proof of the degree to which the deniers distort and deceive.


Appendix

7. Le Monde, Jan 16, 1979, p. 13; Jean-Claude Pressac, Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers (New York, 1989), hereafter cited as Technique, p. 429.
8. Technique, p. 165.
9. Ibid., p. 429.
10. Ibid.
11. Ibid.
12. Auschwitz State Museum (Panstwowe Muzeum Oswiecim [PMO], file BW 30/40, p. 100; Technique, pp. 430-32.
13. Technique, p. 503.
14. Ibid., p. 548.
15. Faurisson, Statement for the Defense, cited in Technique, p. 505.
16. Faurisson, “Reply to Pierre Vidal-Naquet, p. 78.
17. Technique, p. 554.
18. PMO file BW 30/28, p. 73, cited in Technique, p. 553.
19. PMO file BW 30/28, p. 68, cited in ibid., p. 555.
20. Technique, p. 554. When he discovered this document Pressac confronted Faurisson and told him that because of the many references to gas in the museum archives he no longer believed Faurisson’s thesis was valid.
21. Technique, p. 367.
22. Ibid., p. 432.
23. PMO file BW 30/25, p. 7, cited in Technique, p. 432.
24. Ibid., pp. 434, 438.
25. PMO file BW 30/25, p. 7, cited in Technique, pp. 367, 432.
26. BW 30/34, pp. 49, 50, cited in Technique, pp. 434, 438-39.
27. Technique, pp. 434, 436, 438-39.
28. Bauleitung drawing 252, PMO neg. no. 20943/181, reproduced in Technique, p.512
29. Bauleitung drawing 3764, PMO file BW 2/38, reproduced in Technique, p. 514.


Deborah Lipstadt: „Denying the Holocaust – The growing assault on truth and memory”, pp. 225-229



UPDATE: the main source for the article above can be read online in its entirety, including the original scans. Meaning the original documents concerning the construction of Auschwitz can be investigated there.

Jean-Claude Pressac: Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwi...operation/

Chapter 8: "One proof ... one single proof": thirty-nine criminal traces
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwi...0429.shtml


Four sample scans showing some of the work sheets described above (go to the site above to see them all in high resolution):


http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwi...e443.shtml


http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwi...e444.shtml


http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwi...e371.shtml


http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwi...e432.shtml

[SirBustaBear]

The Jäger Report



Another of the many pieces of evidence for the factuality of the Shoah that some people would have to rationalize and explain away. The "Einsatzgruppen" (task forces) documented and reported their deeds with the exactness of the German bureaucracy. Take note that Jäger only lead a single sub group (Einsatzkommando 3) of the major division (Einsatzgruppe A), there were several of these Einsatzgruppen groups. Historians estimate that the Einsatzgruppen contributed to over 1 million murders.

Quote:The report covers a five month period, during which EK 3 murdered over 130,000 people. Approximately one third of them were listed by Jaeger as “Jewish children”. On 1 February 1942, Jaeger updated the totals to 136,421 Jews (46,403 men, 55,556 women and 34,464 children), 1,064 Communists, 653 mentally disabled, and 134 others in a handwritten note for Stahlecker.

Click here if you would like to download a scan of the original document in PDF format. (1 mb)

http://alley-cat.info/the-jaeger-report-...ss-murder/

Quote:The report commences with:
"Secret Reich Business! 5 copies
Complete list of executions carried out in the EK 3 area up to 1 December 1941."

And goes on to list the daily numbers of the victims

[…]

This report makes it clear that the Nazis were not "fighting partisans", as various Nazi-apologists claim. Jaeger flatly describes how the victims were rounded up, taken into secluded areas, and shot - men, women, and children

[…]

Those who were spared for slave labor were not to survive either

http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/j...tro000.htm

Significant excerpts from the Jäger report (translated into English):

Quote:I can state today that the goal of solving the Jewish problem for Lithuania has been achieved by Einsatzkommando 3. In Lithuania, there are no more Jews, other than the Work Jews, including their families. They are:

In Schaulen around 4,500
In Kauen " 15,000
In Wilna " 15,000

I also wanted to kill these Work Jews, including their families, which however brought upon me acrimonious challenges from the civil administration (the Reichskommisar) and the army and caused the prohibition: the Work Jews and their families are not to be shot!

[...]

The Jews had to be assembled at one or several locations. Depending on the number, a place for the required pits had to be found and the pits dug.

[...]

I am of the view that sterilization of the male Work Jews should begin immediately to prevent reproduction. Should a Jewess nonetheless become pregnant, she is to be liquidated.

The Jäger report, pp. 7-8

Scanned pages 7 + 9 of the Jäger report, click to get a higher resolution:


http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/j...img007.gif


http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/j...img009.gif

[GasseGeir]

It never happened. As simple as that.

I challenge anyone to prove that a single person, Jew or non-Jew, was ever holocausted by the Nazis in WWII.

-----------------

About the Jäger Report/Einsatzgruppen business:

Picture this: OK, it is war and you're a German soldier moving in on some village in Russia... You're instructed to kill as many Jews as possible. Now you see some guy - and you ask him: "Pardon me, good Sir, but are you perchance a Jew? You see, if you are then I must shoot you."

The person then replies "yes," the German shoots him, picks up his notebook and writes "...just killed the 17th Jew today, a man by the name of ..... in the village of ....."

C'mon, it is war and you have no way of knowing, in the heat of the battle, who's a Jew and who isn't. We're also forgetting the good old "they wanted to keep the Holocaust a secret." If they wanted to keep this mass murder of innocent, peaceful Jews a secret - then why did they make such reports?

Something from reality:



If I'm not mistaken, this is a photograph* of German soldiers executing a partisan somewhere on the Eastern front/to the east of Germany in WWII. Maybe a Jew, maybe another ethnicity.

Problem 1: A partisan is not peaceful/innocent. And shooting the enemy on the battlefield is not "holocaust," but business as usual.

(I can show you a whole bunch of photos of partisans/terrorists that were shooting at the German soldiers + terrorizing German civilians. Many of these partisans/terrorists were Jews.)

Problem 2: Again the old "they wanted to keep it secret." Then why this photo - and why no photo of the enormous gassing project that involved millions and lasted several years?

An additional problem with the Jäger Report + 1 or 2 "confessors" at Nuremberg, is that we know the Allies used torture to obtain whatever confessions they wanted, we know people changed their statements, and we know that yet others never got the chance to explain themselves in court.

*Does anyone have reliable information about this photograph? I myself don't know much about it.

[JohnnyZyklon]

Though the poll results here are encouraging, I am disturbed to see the number of confirmers present in this thread. Though I hesitate to not accuse you all of being Jewish agents, on here for the purpose of spreading your hoax propaganda, it is, sadly, much more likely that you are actually "truthers" who are simply psychologically incapable of questioning the biggest lie of all.

There simply is no physical evidence that this alleged event occurred. All we have is a bunch of Jews and tortured Nazis facing execution saying whatever kind of crazy nonsense they could come up with. Confirmers will claim that we deniers "discount eye-witness testimony", but they forget that this is an allegation of a crime, for which men were put on trial and executed - there is no other trial in modern history where people were convicted and imprisoned or executed based on eye-witness testimony, other than Nuremberg and the Nazi witch trials which followed it in Israel and elsewhere. These can only be compared to such farces as the Salem Witch trials. They would not even convict Milosevic based purely on eye-witness accounts, and thus had to kill him extra-judiciously, to save face.

I personally believe that beyond the Jewish agenda, the whole fate of western civilization rests on this massive lie. Without it, we must be forced to recognize that Hitler was the good guy of WWII, and this cannot be allowed to happen, by any of the western elite establishments. Capitalism and Communism have both failed miserably, and yet we simply keep trying to rework both of these failed systems, rather than look at the obvious fact that the European Fascists created a political/social/economic structure which worked better than anything we have seen since the birth of civilization.

[nitink]

The fact that people are in jail for questioning "the holocaust" should raise an eyebrow.

Always remember:

The Truth Is Anti-Semitic!

[SirBustaBear]

Holocaust Controversies: The Jäger Report

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.c...eport.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.c...ort-2.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.c...ort-3.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.c...ort-4.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.c...ort-5.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.c...-6_17.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.c...-7_28.html

In this in-depth analysis the Jäger report is further corroborated by other sources in a most scholarly way, the author goes through different places and details of it and even makes connections to documents about mass graves. They link to some very graphic pictures, and to me those victims don't look like "partisans". But I don't have to rely on my personal impression here.



http://collections.yadvashem.org/photosa...26094.html
http://collections.yadvashem.org/photosa...25416.html
http://collections.yadvashem.org/photosa...26286.html

Kamenets-Podolsk massacre, Ukraine, 27 and 28 August 1941
(not listed in the Jäger report, but related to another Einsatzgruppen action)

(11-10-2012 05:05 PM)GasseGeir Wrote:  Problem 1: […] Problem 2: […] An additional problem with the Jäger Report

You try to suggest that the Jäger report must be forged because of what you perceive as contradictions. That is – as so often – a very indirect approach of attempting disprove something. In a similar way like you I would ask: where is the hard evidence that this document is forged? First of all the German post war authorities (not the Allied forces) thoroughly examined the document and declared it to be authentic – in 1963. The Jäger report is further corroborated by other documented Einsatzgruppen reports (e.g. "Operational Situation Report USSR No. 128") or the 1961 court testimony of Otto Bradfisch. The suggestion that the Jäger report is forged becomes highly implausible once you take note that the "Allied forces" – this is NOT some homogeneous entity – in this case the Soviet Union withheld the only surviving copy for decades until 1963, even until after the death of Karl Jäger. If they wanted to use this "forgery" to prove the case that Jews were specifically targeted they would have brought this document to the Nuremberg trials for maximum effect. They did not. The above mentioned blog has a plausible explanation for this: this document went against the Soviet party line that there was no extermination policy targeted against any specific ethnic or religious group, only Communists in general. These circumstances further speak against the claim that this document has been tampered with by some ominous unified "Allied force".

BTW, the above mentioned blog is highly recommended. It's probably the most scholarly blog of the whole internet regarding that topic. The authors seem willing to take on "revisionists", so if you honestly want to get to the bottom of this topic you might want to debate with them. They probably have much more motivation to deal with people of your "school of thinking" than I have anymore.

(11-10-2012 05:05 PM)GasseGeir Wrote:  A partisan is not peaceful/innocent. And shooting the enemy on the battlefield is not "holocaust," but business as usual.

Killing civilians in villages like women and children as clearly stated in the Jäger report and as confirmed by Bradfisch's testimony for example is not war as usual. It is genocide. The Einsatzgruppen were not regular army (Wehrmacht), but special forces with the task to "clean up" the areas occupied by the Wehrmacht. Targeted was anyone seen as a potential enemy in the newly acquired Reich area. As documented by the Einsatzgruppen reports mentioned above this included "racially inferior" groups like Jews, but Gypsies as well. If you adopt the Nazi propaganda that all the Jews are vermin to the people, you would probably argue that such a "racially inferior" group must be seen as "partisans" as well. And actually a note by Himmler about a meeting with Hitler is documented saying: „Jewish question – to be exterminated as partisans". But I could only hope that the conspiracy research movement will never adopt such Nazi propaganda.

(11-10-2012 05:05 PM)GasseGeir Wrote:  "Pardon me, good Sir, but are you perchance a Jew? You see, if you are then I must shoot you."

You try to belittle a serious situation, while we have better documented information at hand. If you study the two sources given above you can read how it could have been achieved: in the beginning with some public announcement for Jews to assemble for a "resettlement". After that did not work any more as the word spread around they would simply seal off a district and search the houses with major brutality.

(11-10-2012 05:05 PM)GasseGeir Wrote:  It never happened. As simple as that.

I challenge anyone to prove that a single person, Jew or non-Jew, was ever holocausted by the Nazis in WWII.

This is a highly implausible view. First of all: considering the vast amount of existing evidence which converges in the conclusion that the Shoah did happen I strongly doubt there would be anything you would accept as proof. Otherwise you could start by trying to trace some of the documented individual fates in one of the big Shoah museums.

I always find this amazing: people from your camp always demand proof – of course it shouldn't be any "unreliable" eyewitness testimony, it must be real documents – and when they are confronted with it they try to explain it away, in this case by suggesting it just could not exist for this or that reason. In this case: by trying to construct contradictions.

The Shoah is one of the best documented events in history. You demand proof, while tons of proof have been delivered already. Regarding evidence for the Shoah in general, read the book by Shermer for a start or study the material referenced in this comprehensive list:

Index of published evidence on mass extermination in Auschwitz and Auschwitz-Birkenau
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.d...ce-on.html

Testimonies of prisoners (hearsay) on mass extermination in Auschwitz
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.d...-on_7.html

From the impression that you will certainly dismiss any such evidence and claim that it is forged or coerced by some other means (BTW: Höß was not tortured by his Polish captors to write his memoirs or by the Americans in preparation for his Nuremberg testimony; see: [*]) the ball would actually be in your court: you make a very heavy accusation which because of its nature must be backed by very strong, hard proof. Actually it would be up to you to prove to me:

- where this huge conspiracy had its center, how the hierarchy for this tremendous operation was structured exactly that encompassed several totally heterogenous forces (e.g. the Soviet Union)
- how it was possible to instruct hundreds of forgers, torturers and witnesses, place documents in different places etc. so that a consistent picture would emerge
- why never any information about this huge operation leaked out
- where the documentary proof is for the existence of such an operation; where is the signed order, where is the smoking gun?
- why never one single person stepped forward moved by his/her conscience and made this huge conspiracy known to the world

The matter of fact is: there was never delivered any such evidence from your camp and no consistent explanation was delivered that is able to explain (or in your case: explain away) in a plausible way all the existing evidence. All the revisionists usually have to offer is an endless list of actual or perceived inconsistencies, brought up in order to spread doubt. This taken together with all the proven distortions I have seen coming from the revisionist camp lowered my willingness to give these arguments any credit anymore to below zero. From my experience they are purely driven by certain ideologies, not by the honest search for truth.



This might be of general interest in the above mentioned context:

Photographic documentation of Nazi crimes
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.d...-nazi.html


[*]
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hoes...-faq.shtml
http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar19.html
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwi...s-memoirs/
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwi...k-paradox/
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.py?people/h/ho...on-torture
http://www.h-ref.de/personen/hoess-rudol...rungen.php

[GasseGeir]

Hello SirBustaBear

Let's begin with this picture:



Who do we see in this potograph, and who killed them how, when, where and why? Please document your claims.

[fujiinn]

(11-10-2012 05:05 PM)GasseGeir Wrote:  [...]
Problem 1: A partisan is not peaceful/innocent. And shooting the enemy on the battlefield is not "holocaust," but business as usual.
[...]

This is so wrong. A partisan is a freedom-fighter. In the same way as most activities conducted on this site might be coined by the US government as
"domestic terrorism", how could anyone justify killing some US citizens that post on this forum, by the US gov., for being "terrorists"? A partisan is a reactionary. If he's violent it's because he's defending against violence. Do you think writing petitions and peaceful protesting are going to solve anything? If yes, let's abolish the prison system, we could appeal to violence with good words. Call it how you wish, Nazi Germany started a war of aggression and most likely some war crimes were conducted by the Wermacht. Even if you disagree with the Holocaust official story, Jews were put in concentration camps for being Jewish, and that's violence.

[GasseGeir]

(11-16-2012 09:03 PM)fujiinn Wrote:  

(11-10-2012 05:05 PM)GasseGeir Wrote:  [...]
Problem 1: A partisan is not peaceful/innocent. And shooting the enemy on the battlefield is not "holocaust," but business as usual.
[...]

This is so wrong. A partisan is a freedom-fighter. In the same way as most activities conducted on this site might be coined by the US government as
"domestic terrorism", how could anyone justify killing some US citizens that post on this forum, by the US gov., for being "terrorists"? A partisan is a reactionary. If he's violent it's because he's defending against violence. Do you think writing petitions and peaceful protesting are going to solve anything? If yes, let's abolish the prison system, we could appeal to violence with good words. Call it how you wish, Nazi Germany started a war of aggression and most likely some war crimes were conducted by the Wermacht. Even if you disagree with the Holocaust official story, Jews were put in concentration camps for being Jewish, and that's violence.

No no no.

There are rules, you see. In war you fight in a recognized army and abide by the rules of war. You can't just take up a gun and start killing people. "Partisans" is actually a too nice word for these Jewish communist terrorists. That's what they were: terrorists. And these were the guys the Einzatsgruppen went after and killed quite a few of.

Now on to your claim that Nazi Germany started WWII in Europe. This is wrong. The first declaration of war against Nazi Germany came in the beginning of 1933, by international Jewry, and the second declaration of war came from England in Sept. 1939 after Hitler went in to Poland to stop the slaughter of his fellow Germans there. Hitler did not want war, but at the same time he could not allow this ethnic cleansing of Germans to continue.

Yes, there was a holocaust in WWII - a holocaust of ethnic Germans. I don't know how many were exterminated - maybe 20 million all in all if we count those that were exterminated 1935-1955. But there was no mass extermination of Jews.

Yes, Jews were put in camps as they were the enemy of Nazi Germany. Nothing peculiar about that.

Here's a little something about what life was like in those camps:





If you want documentation for my statements in this post, just ask me and I'll provide you with it.

[fujiinn]

(11-16-2012 09:23 PM)GasseGeir Wrote:  

(11-16-2012 09:03 PM)fujiinn Wrote:  

(11-10-2012 05:05 PM)GasseGeir Wrote:  [...]
Problem 1: A partisan is not peaceful/innocent. And shooting the enemy on the battlefield is not "holocaust," but business as usual.
[...]

This is so wrong. A partisan is a freedom-fighter. In the same way as most activities conducted on this site might be coined by the US government as
"domestic terrorism", how could anyone justify killing some US citizens that post on this forum, by the US gov., for being "terrorists"? A partisan is a reactionary. If he's violent it's because he's defending against violence. Do you think writing petitions and peaceful protesting are going to solve anything? If yes, let's abolish the prison system, we could appeal to violence with good words. Call it how you wish, Nazi Germany started a war of aggression and most likely some war crimes were conducted by the Wermacht. Even if you disagree with the Holocaust official story, Jews were put in concentration camps for being Jewish, and that's violence.

No no no.

There are rules, you see. In war you fight in a recognized army and abide by the rules of war. You can't just take up a gun and start killing people. "Partisans" is actually a too nice word for these Jewish communist terrorists. That's what they were: terrorists. And these were the guys the Einzatsgruppen went after and killed quite a few of.

Now on to your claim that Nazi Germany started WWII in Europe. This is wrong. The first declaration of war against Nazi Germany came in the beginning of 1933, by international Jewry, and the second declaration of war came from England in Sept. 1939 after Hitler went in to Poland to stop the slaughter of his fellow Germans there. Hitler did not want war, but at the same time he could not allow this ethnic cleansing of Germans to continue.

Yes, there was a holocaust in WWII - a holocaust of ethnic Germans. I don't know how many were exterminated - maybe 20 million all in all if we count those that were exterminated 1935-1955. But there was no mass extermination of Jews.

Yes, Jews were put in camps as they were the enemy of Nazi Germany. Nothing peculiar about that.

Here's a little something about what life was like in those camps:





If you want documentation for my statements in this post, just ask me and I'll provide you with it.

The rules are made up by those that start the wars. Was there any war in history voted in or out of existence by those that would be doing all the dying? Can't recall once instance. It's easier to use propaganda or false flag missions to pose as a victim of foreign aggression.

If some government agents would come to your house and start stealing stuff for some lame excuse like "Be a good chap and hand over your possessions for the Country" will you do it or turn into a partisan/terrorist?

I don't recall Poles doing ethnic cleansing in Sept. 1939.

Don't get me wrong, I don't really care whether the Holocaust is a propaganda bomb or not. Jews were killed/imprisoned in that war without trial, by the thousands. That's violence. The International Jewry means nothing because if your country's government were a representative of you I'm pretty sure a lot of people will be morally excused to kill you. It's like saying that Mexicans should be killed because there are drug cartels that do a lot of damage to Americans.

[macfadden]

(11-13-2012 06:31 AM)JohnnyZyklon Wrote:  I personally believe that beyond the Jewish agenda, the whole fate of western civilization rests on this massive lie. Without it, we must be forced to recognize that Hitler was the good guy of WWII, and this cannot be allowed to happen, by any of the western elite establishments.

Hoax or not, Hitler was a fascist scum. Your logic is deeply flawed. It's a little simplistic to view history in terms of good guys and bad guys, don't ya think? And even if you are just such a simpleton, you'd have to be a complete imbecile to think that solely because the allied powers were bad therefore the axis powers were, by logical necessity, good. Saturday morning cartoon logic: communism bad therefore nazi fascism good. Jesus Beesus for teh lulz!!!

[GasseGeir]

fujiinn

Watch this one. It's not long:





macfadden

You are wrong. What you need to understand is that the German national socialists were freedom fighters that opposed the tyranny of international Jewry and their communism.

Hitler wanted to defend and liberate Europe. The Allies & the Jews in Soviet wanted to enslave it - and they succeeded quite well. At the very least I presume you recall that half of Europe was taken over by the Soviets after the war, and that Germany became occupied?

I recommend reading. This is an excellent website with lots of basic information about WWII: http://zioncrimefactory.com/2012/10/29/a...socialism/

[JohnnyZyklon]

(11-17-2012 07:45 AM)macfadden Wrote:  

(11-13-2012 06:31 AM)JohnnyZyklon Wrote:  I personally believe that beyond the Jewish agenda, the whole fate of western civilization rests on this massive lie. Without it, we must be forced to recognize that Hitler was the good guy of WWII, and this cannot be allowed to happen, by any of the western elite establishments.

Hoax or not, Hitler was a fascist scum. Your logic is deeply flawed. It's a little simplistic to view history in terms of good guys and bad guys, don't ya think? And even if you are just such a simpleton, you'd have to be a complete imbecile to think that solely because the allied powers were bad therefore the axis powers were, by logical necessity, good. Saturday morning cartoon logic: communism bad therefore nazi fascism good.

Though your post is largely unintelligible, I'll go ahead and address it. Firstly, you would have to elaborate on what exactly you are implying when you say that Hitler was "fascist scum". Hitler was most certainly a fascist, but you are not saying anything at all here, other than "he was bad because". You then go on to imply that there are no good people, that everyone is always bad. If someone breaks into your house, kills your dog and rapes your wife, should people then say "well, it doesn't really matter - everyone is bad." What?

In the context of war even, this makes no sense. What about all the countries the US has invaded or bombed since 911? They are bad for doing this, but all the countries they bombed were also bad. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a simpleton, because everyone knows that all people everywhere are bad.

Maybe it is the terms "good and bad" you are trying to pick at, playing some kind of semantic word game? Well, let me put it in these terms: when a crime is committed, there is a perpetrator and a victim. Do you know what those words mean? If one country starts a massive war against a country which hasn't threatened them in any way, who is the perpetrator and who is the victim?

Hitler was not the aggressor in WWII. He was taking care of his people and his country and was brutally violated by aggressive capitalist and communist countries who refused to allow a group of people to live differently than the way they had decreed people should live. They also happened to make shift loads of money and take over the world.

This was probably a waste of time. Unless you are willing to clearly state what the hell you are even talking about, we can't have a conversation. And I assume if you had any idea what the hell you were talking about, you would have gone ahead and stated it in your original attack.

I am very interested to learn why I am such a "simpleton" and "imbecile". Please enlighten me. If you are incapable of elaborating on the WWII aspect (as, again, it seems to me that if you had this capacity, you'd have already done it), maybe you could just expound on your "everyone everywhere who ever does anything is always bad" theory. For instance, I would be very interested to hear if this applies to puppies: if a US soldier throws a puppy off a cliff, does it not matter, given that the puppy is also bad for some reason?

---

(11-18-2012 01:54 AM)GasseGeir Wrote:  fujiinn

Watch this one. It's not long:





macfadden

You are wrong. What you need to understand is that the German national socialists were freedom fighters that opposed the tyranny of international Jewry and their communism.

Hitler wanted to defend and liberate Europe. The Allies & the Jews in Soviet wanted to enslave it - and they succeeded quite well. At the very least I presume you recall that half of Europe was taken over by the Soviets after the war, and that Germany became occupied?

I recommend reading. This is an excellent website with lots of basic information about WWII: http://zioncrimefactory.com/2012/10/29/a...socialism/

Geir, I would also add that capitalism is actually a creation of the Jews as well. Internationalist communism and individualist capitalism would be virtually indistinguishable to a Pakistani goat herder who's only allegiance lies to his tribe. Birth of these systems are designed by collectivist Jews in order to inhibit their host nations from maintaining collectivist ideals. In this way they break down the social fabric of the nations they leech off of, making them all the easier to suck dry.

It is not on Marx, Lenin and Trotsky who were Jews, but also Ayn Rand and Milton Friedman and the rest of the key figures in the modern capitalist movement.

[macfadden]

(11-20-2012 04:20 PM)JohnnyZyklon Wrote:  your post is largely unintelligible

The post was perfectly intelligible, you are just largely unintelligent.

(11-20-2012 04:20 PM)JohnnyZyklon Wrote:  Firstly, you would have to elaborate on what exactly you are implying when you say that Hitler was "fascist scum". Hitler was most certainly a fascist, but you are not saying anything at all here, other than "he was bad because". You then go on to imply that there are no good people, that everyone is always bad. If someone breaks into your house, kills your dog and rapes your wife, should people then say "well, it doesn't really matter - everyone is bad." What?

Are you andre from the outlawjournalism forum?

Are you and this idiot one and the same person?


So if your andre then the other moron must be Belzebob.

What's your game? You ran your forum into the ground and now your here to ruin this one?