Holocaust Analysis

[silkworm]

MMII< I strongly challenge the 6 million figure, this is a huge exxageartion to get sympathy and political leverage fromt he West.

[mmiichael]

Silk -

Reassuring to know there are some open minds around here.

There is already enough agenda driven Jew-bashing on this site disguised as anti-Zionism.

I don't want to come off as an apologist. But there as much or more proof of the Holocaust as anything in recent history. You might as well try to prove WWII didn't happen.

The 2000 pages of pseudo-documentation denying it amounts toa post-it note beside the recorded accounts of millions of European and American military witnesses, many still living, warehouses full of legal testimony, notarized documentation, photograph and film footages, acres of mass graves.



Start by reading here:


http://www.nizkor.org

or

http://www.holocaust-history.org


also check out the related


http://hatewatch.org




Mike F

[PatrickSMcNally]

Quote:But there as much or more proof of the Holocaust as anything in recent history.

That does not match with what is widely admitted in even the more significant orthodox literature. For example:

-----
The question of the Third Reich and the depositions and accounts of its leaders make possible a reconstruction, down to the last detail, of the origin and development of the plans for aggression, the military campaigns, and the whole array of procedures by which the Nazis intended to reshape the world to their liking. Only the campaign to exterminate the Jews, as regards its conception as well as many other essential aspects, remains shrouded in darkness. Inferences, psychological considerations, and third- or fourth-hand reports enable us to reconstruct its development with considerable accuracy. Certain details, however, must remain forever unknown. The three or four people chiefly involved in the actual drawing up of the plan for total extermination are dead and no documents have survived; perhaps none ever existed. Such is the secrecy with which the masters of the Third Reich, however boastful and cynical they may have been in other matters, surrounded their biggest crime.
-----
-- Leon Poliakov, HARVEST OF HATE, p. 108.

While Poliakov clearly seeks to affirm the orthodox scenario, he has obviously acknowledged an outstanding gap in the documentary record and a need to rely on "third- or fourth-hand reports" to make up for such. By his own account, there is much better documentation of every other aspect of the Third Reich. So I don't see how anyone could claim that "there as much or more proof of the Holocaust as anything in recent history."

What people often confuse the issue with is that there is much documentation to show that the Germans had determined on a plan to ship all Jews to the eastern ends of Europe. There is also much documentation to show that reprisal killings, practiced in the counter-insurgency wars that were especially ferocious in eastern Europe, often targeted Jews more heavily than anyone else. In Ukrainia the German armies were trying to cultivate some support and so an order was given that if a guerilla action occurred for which reprisals were ordered, but for which no clear evidence incriminating Ukrainians existed, then the hostages taken to be shot in reprisal were to be of either Jewish or Russian extraction. This was done to reduce the chances of needlessly alienating Ukrainians who may have felt hostile to Moscow but would have been turned off to have a My Lai massacre committed in their villages over a guerilla attack which they perhaps had nothing to do with. Naturally Jews were common victims in that type of context, involving at least a few hundred thousand deaths. Having that occur against the background of a massive forced deportation of Jews to the east gave some appearance of credibility during the war to charges which Allied propaganda circulated about "gas chambers." But as Poliakov acknowledges, there really isn't much direct first-hand evidence for these more inflated charges.

[---]

Welcome to Concen, PatrickSMcNally.

[Guest]

Quote:

ctrl Wrote:Just because some true antisemites might doubt the holocaust doesn't mean anyone who doubts the story is an antisemite. Does it? If yes, please explain.

That is completely true. Anything should be open to re-examination.

But there was Holocaust, 6 Million Jews were systematially exterminated in a state sponsored genocide. Though details can be picked away at, the validation of this is so overwhelming, millions of first hand observer and participant accounts, warehouses full of documentation and photographs,
it begs the question why many have are so intent on disproving it.

The problem is, is that so much of this "documentation" actually works against the holocaust supporting story.

For instance, it's "documented fact" that jewish hair was sent to Germany for use in textiles, mattresses et cetera, but none were ever found or can be produced.
It's "documented fact" that soap was made from Jewish fat. Where is it all? Where is a single box? No museum has one.
It's "documented fact" that multitudes of bodies were buried within 25 feet or so of the water well used to supply water to inmates at Treblinka. Disease?

I could go on, but why?

If you're curious why I can't get over the contradictions, watch this: http://tracker.conspiracycentral.net/torre...ails.php?id=186

[plasticfan]

Jeff Rense 16 Feb 2008
Hour-2: Michael Hoffman - Zionist Persecution Of Bishop Williamson
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4728359/Je....02.16-chakra71

http://www.rense.com/general85/bish.htm

[albie]

The lack of hair and soap is not evidence. The only real evidence of the holocaust is testimony and the missing millions of jews after the war. Where are they? Produce them and produce testimony that counters the experiences of the jews during the second world war. Innaccurate accounts by the jews and rebuilt gas chambers are not evidence against the holocaust.

The holocaust conspiracy is a red herring built up by racists. It gives a nasty edge to conspiracy theory. There's no way you can prove it happened or didn't. So why bother to make yourself look bad to most of the people in the world by even dealing with it?

You discredit the conspiracy movement by doing so.

[---]

Quote:The lack of hair and soap is not evidence. The only real evidence of the holocaust is testimony and the missing millions of jews after the war. Where are they? Produce them and produce testimony that counters the experiences of the jews during the second world war. Innaccurate accounts by the jews and rebuilt gas chambers are not evidence against the holocaust.

The holocaust conspiracy is a red herring built up by racists. It gives a nasty edge to conspiracy theory. There's no way you can prove it happened or didn't. So why bother to make yourself look bad to most of the people in the world by even dealing with it?

You discredit the conspiracy movement by doing so.

did you actually read the thread before you commented?

[Guest]

I think albie needs to learn exactly what revisionism is and what we actually believe happened.

[---]

Quote:I think albie needs to learn exactly what revisionism is and what we actually believe happened.

I remember back when I believed wholeheartedly in the official history

[Guest]

Quote:I remember back when I believed wholeheartedly in the official history

Shhh! Ungläubigkeit ist in Deutschland verboten.;)

[---]

Quote:

Quote:I remember back when I believed wholeheartedly in the official history

Shhh! Ungläubigkeit ist in Deutschland verboten.;)

stimmt;)

just up the road from me...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7289973.stm

[Permindex]

From a Jew who knew the truth...

The part that never made it into the available transcript online...

Benjamin H. Freedman's Speech given in 1961 at the Willard Hotel in Washington, D.C. Transcript
Part 2 – What’s MISSING in the transcript available online

Full speech MP3 Download

1hr 34min 20sec

Now, i'm sure that Kennedy is smart and when he used the word "aggression" he may have had in the back of his mind, "Well, maybe I can get out of this, you can't call it aggression if people merely want to go back to their homes. If you went back to your homes now and you found some some bums and tramps living in it, wouldn't you have the right to get them out of your home and take the home back?"

Well this happened collectively in Palestine. And it did so, it all took place because the British made that deal to get the United States into the war so they wouldn't have to sign a negotiated treaty. And they were high and mighty, they were proud, and this thing has been kept quiet. Great Britain, the mighty Great Britain, didn't want the world to know that they were weak and they had to turn to the Jews and work this dirty trick to prevent them from surrendering to Germany.

It's a conspiracy, but why aren't people told these things? Why are they only told Eichmann and the six million? And i'm telling you, and don't ask me to go into it now, but most of those six million that are missing are walking in the streets of the United States happy and prosperous. (Applause)

(Question asked)

Well, can I tell you something? You're right. You're right. But, we did it in Korea and we did it in Nicaragua, and after it's what it's called a fait accompli. Now the world is suffering from a new disease called "fait accompli." When you talk to the Jews or their Christian stooges, they say, "Well it's a fait accompli. The Arabs have got to learn that Israel (needs?) to say they've got to live with it - it's a fait accompli, which in French means "an accomplished fact." But now, the Soviet Union was in business 16 years before we recognized it. The East German government has been doing business for 10 years. Red China has been doing business for 10 years. North Korea has been doing business for about 10 years. Well, we haven't recognized one of them. But when the Zionist insurrectionists in Palestine proclaimed themselves a sovereign state after driving out the natives, in less than 6 minutes I was in the United Nations when Senator [?] was called to the telephone. And they told him from Washington, [?] just recognized the Zionists in Palestine as a sovereign state - the state of Israel.

Well, you know the world is laughing at us? You know they say, "Is that what you call honesty? Is that what you call Christianity?" How can they respect that when we the United States who have always bragged about the principle of self-determination, when these people were transplanted there, and [?] the conspiracy, and they were armed, the people taken from the ghettos of Poland and Eastern Europe, [?], dumped into Palestine. When England withdrew, they appeared on the streets with what has been conservatively estimated at $300 million worth of the most modern weapons the world has supplied. Where did they get them? Four motor bombers, tanks, flamethrowers, machine guns, bazookas. where did these poor people out of these ghettos of Eastern Europe all of a sudden [?] these things and look under the bed and find them?

.......

Now world Communism has something to do with Zionism when 99% or the people that were transfered from Eastern Europe, from Poland and Russia to the Middle East - what is called Palestine, were Communists. And when the first Parliament was organized in so-called Israel, 11 of the 12 members were born in Russia and were brought up as Communists. A leopard can't change its spots so easily. So if you would tell me I [?] that Israel is more Communist than the Soviet Union. That may shock you. I don't want to keep these people here late tonight to explain that, but in Israel, the kibutzes, if you know what they are, the collectives, are more Communist than the collectives in Russia. If you don't believe see [?] if you know he is, a reverend, is the, I forget the name of the Princeton magazine, he's the editor of it, just came back from there..So anyway, you'll find out that the [?] group, which is a Communist Union in Israel, controls 80% of the industry, 80% of the people who work for a living in Israel work for businesses owned by this Union, the [?] group, which is a Communist-Controlled Union. Did you know that?.... [?]....80% of the industries in Israel are owned and controlled 100% by that union. But if that isn't Communism or Socialism, I'd like to know what is.

Further topics:

-Zionists and Co-religionists
-The Talmud
-Sent 6 pages of the Talmud in the mail
-Postmaster tried to ban it from the mail
-Jewish politicians had the mail released out of fear of exposure of Talmud
-Belief in Jehovah - comes from the old word "breath" or "breathing", referred to as "life with breathing" - became a religion
-Moses married daughter of the high priest and became a priest himself - "my people knew not Jehovah"
-The Old Testament was never a religion

[---]

Quote:The CIA could never prove that he had spied for another country. The problem was they were investigating the wrong Angleton. They should have investigated his father. The forerunners of Israeli intelligence used the sins of the father to blackmail the son. It began with the father smuggling Nazi money and then the son helping to obscure the tracks.

In order to keep the cover-up going, James Angleton had to keep the CIA away from two key areas. Apart from controlling access to Israeli liason, Angleton needed to monopolize the flow of Vatican information in order to protect his role in the Vessel forgery. In addition, he had to protect the role of his father and the Dulles brothers... Angleton managed to keep these two major CIA accounts to himself throughout his long career...

It was a matter of self-protection. Angleton had to keep everyone else in U.S. intelligence oblivious to the fact that he was being blackmailed by the Zionists. His Middle East forgery certainly occurred soon after his recruitment by the Zionists in late 1944. By the beginning of 1946, he was thoroughly in their pocket. He could only sit back and keep quiet as the Zionists simply piggybacked on Father Draganovic's Nazi smuggling operation.

The bewildered U.S. Army Counter Intelligence Corps noted in 1947 that some Nazis were going out through what they thought was the Jewish underground. The truth is, it was often the same Ratline. As one American source who worked on the Nazi smuggling admitted, they even used the same trucks "The Zionists told us that for everyone of them [the Nazis] that you take out, you take out one of ours."

... With Angleton covering their tracks, the Zionists had little trouble evading the CIC sweeps...

-----
-- John Loftus & Mark Aarons, THE SECRET WAR AGAINST THE JEWS, pp. 145-6.

[countdown]

What’s Unique About the Holocaust?

July 16th, 2009

I usually try to keep posts concise. But I thought once a month I can splurge on my word count and try talk about something in a bit more detail. Here goeth my first attempt. A few days ago Takis Konstantopoulos wrote a reaction to my 2008 post about the Holodomor (Stalin’s planned famine in the Ukraine). He raised some good questions about the nature of genocide denialism that I’d like to address by comparing the Holocaust to other genocides.

I went to a Jewish school so we probably learned a bit more about the Holocaust than most schoolkids. A common perspective we were exposed to was that the Holocaust was unique in terms of the extent of the atrocities. I strongly disagree that it’s special in this sense. It’s hard to compare cases of extreme suffering. Can we really say whether the ripping apart of babies (from the Holocaust) is better/worse than, say, requiring people to show no emotions when their family is slaughtered (under pain of death) or making children bite another child to death? Such a comparison is demeaning, too. It can even lead to an ugly competitiveness: “my genocide’s worse than your genocide!”.

But there are 2 areas where I think the Holocaust is unique. They form a [seemingly] puzzling combination. (1) There is probably more evidence of the Holocaust’s details than for any other genocide in history. (2) There is probably more third party denial [see below] of the Holocaust than for any genocide.
Degrees of Evidence for Genocides

Most genocides are pretty scarce on even on “basics” such as body counts. This year, we saw the killing of about 9200 Tamil civilians in Sri Lanka by the government’s military campaign to destroy the Tamil Tigers. Or was it 20,000? We’ll never know. The best photo evidence is a set of poor quality satellite images that show a rubble of bombed tents in a civilian camp. Similarly, the largest post-WW2 conflict is the Congo War — an effective genocide which can be considered an extension of the Rwandan genocide. The death toll is about 5.4 million, with a huge margin of uncertainty. But the Nazis did not hide anything. They deliberately accounted for as many victims as they could. They went out of their way to photograph as much as possible so that we have archives with 85,000 photos of how it really was on the ground.

Also, for most genocides there is no clear evidence of intent. To what extent were the deaths in the Holodomor planned by Stalin and to what extent was it a result of the poor crop yields and famines that the USSR experienced at the time? This really is an open question. As are most death tolls from most genocides. Unsurprising since a lot of genocides are constructed bottom-up, by the civilian masses themselves. For instance as far as I know the Rwandan genocide wasn’t the direct result of a clear chain of command. Again, not so for the Nazis, who provided the clearest possible evidence of intent all the way up their complicity chain. We have documents all the way from the [public] proceedings of the Wannsee Conference, executive orders, testimonies from trials etc.
Denialism of Genocide

In terms of denialism, there is more of a continuum. There are people who deny every form of mass murder. Some US communists today deny that Mao did anything wrong. Chomsky essentially wanted to give the Khmer Rouge a pass. Russian nationalists deny the Holodomor. Leftist intellectuals from the west denied that there was anything wrong with Stalin’s show trials. But I don’t think for there’s the same level of third party denialism for any other genocide.

By third party denial I mean denial by private individuals external to the genocide itself. I think the two most organised cases of mass murder denial are the Turkish government’s denial of the Armenian genocide (even trying to edit an Encarta article) and the Chinese government’s denial of the mass murder instituted by Mao (by censorship and downplaying). But both are cases of denialism by the political descendants of the system responsible for the original crimes. Holocaust denial is a different beast altogether: a popular movement scattered across the world with no continuity-ties to the Nazi party. (Even neo-Nazi groups are recreations — not attempts by an ongoing regime to maintain its legitimacy.)
What Does This Show?

The question of why Holocaust denialism has this special role is probably a complex intersection of racism, politics, economics, religion etc etc. This is a quagmire. But I think the existence of this special role as something unique about the Holocaust (regardless of how it’s come about) has something more plain to tell us.

The denialists of most genocides use similar tactics. Ones which take advantage of the gaps in evidence mentioned above. To take the Holodomor as the example, they claim: (1) That the death toll has been greatly exaggerated (partly true since ridiculous numbers as high as 20 million have been given in political speeches). (2) That the extent to which the deaths were deliberate is questionable (again partly true since there is some legitimate historical debate). Of course all this shows is that we don’t have enough documentation to answer these important questions. We still have enough to know that it happened.

However all of this disappears in the case of Holocaust denial. Because it’s so well documented, there are no evidential gaps for the denialists to latch on to — so they make the gaps up. For other genocides the, racism, nationalistic pride, desire to disparage the victims, all have a better hiding place behind genuine gaps in the historical record. With Holocaust denial, the gaps are removed — and the motives become crystal clear.

The comedian Denis Leary made a good joke on a late night TV appearance. He did an impression of someone anti-Irish saying: “there was no potato famine!” Because the potato famine is such an established fact, it becomes obvious the statement is simply malicious. So too with Holocaust denial, on the existence of which the joke rests.

This is why it’s important to have an awareness of Holocaust history. Not as a mere case study but as a template for genocide dynamics. Not because it was somehow “more” atrocious, but so that we are better equipped to spot the ugliness behind all the other genocide denialism. So we can appropriately say “fuck off” to the Anatoly Wassermans, the Sunsara Taylors, the Noam Chomskys — in the same way we can to the Irvings and Ahmadinejads.

http://anadder.com/whats-unique-about-the-holocaust

lots of hotlinks @ link