I'm back and ready to inflame

[Ognir]

Actually you are a FUCKING asshole and I'll tell you why

Quote:so necessary to downplay it's significance and focus on the "accuracy" of the event?

If you disagree with the famous 6m number in 10 countries, they can put you in fuckin jail for up to 10 years.

Why can't we investiage it?
Who paid for it?
Who gained from it?

[Konev]

Holocaust revisionism is a very important subject. When people start looking at the holocaust critically - and when it turns out that things did not quite happen the way Jews* have told us, and that considerably less than 6 million died - then, and only then, are people able to start really looking at the Jews, Zionism and their enormous power (media, politics and finance).

The Holocaust is a shield to cover up the gigantic power which the Jews and Zionists have over the entire world. It is a taboo which 'nobody' dares to question. An excellent quote I've heard: "The way you see through the scam [the Holocaust], is to analyse it peace by peace".

When people start to critically look at the holocaust, the entire house of cards which the Jews* (and the Zionists) have built starts to collapse, and people see the world around them as it really is.


(Jews* = some Jewish organisations and some Jewish persons, NOT ALL the Jews.)

[Konev]

Quote:Mine too, I've been to the death camps, I've seen the ovens I've seen the pictures of the experiments done on the jews in these camps. I've seen the footage of bodys being bull dozed into pits.

I've been to Auschwitz for 4 days and I had a fairly detailed look at the camp. However, visiting a certain death camp cannot in itself prove that a certain number of people were killed in a certain way. One has to read much more in order to know what really happened there. And after reading some books, one could go to a certain camp to look for example more closely at the alleged gas chambers (some of which are still in their original condition), and see whether they really could be considered to have been operated as homicidal gas chambers, the way some eyewitnesses claimed, or not. And if one has a ground radar, one could also go to a certain death camp - such as Belzec and Treblinka - to search for mass graves, in which hundreds of thousands of people were allegedly buried (then dug up and burnt on "grills made out of railway tracks") http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wsxmCTScCE


I've also seen the ovens. It is an undisputed fact that there were cremation ovens at about every German labor and concentration camps, even those which are not claimed to have been "death camps with gas chambers". It is an undisputed fact of history that there were horrific disease epidemics in all labor and concentration camps. About all the camps had the ovens for the purpose of cremating the thousands of diseased bodies, so that the diseased bodies would not spread anymore diseases and causing even more deaths. The fact that some of the alleged death camps - for example Auschwitz and Majdanek - had the ovens does not prove that they were used to incinerate millions of gassed bodies. The existence of ovens cannot prove this, they only prove that they were there and were used to incinerate some bodies. The documentation about the deaths in the camps proves that a certain number of people were incinerated because about the same number of dead bodies were not to be found after the war. For example, the documentation about the deaths in Auschwitz proves that about 130,000 bodies were incinerated in the ovens http://www.historiography-project.org/mi...books.html - these deaths do not include the "gassed victims". If Nazis really "destroyed ALL the evidence", why not these documents also?
Also an interesting fact is, that the alleged death camps Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka - in which about 1,5 -2 million people were killed, "one third of the holocaust" (with various and also impossible methods) - did NOT have cremation ovens to incinerate the millions of bodies. Allegedly the bodies were burnt in the open air with "grills made out of railway tracks" http://www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com/.
So as I already stated, the existence of cremation ovens does not prove that millions of gassed bodies were incinerated.


And I've also seen the pictures.

Does this picture prove that 60,000,000 people were killed in France by guillotine, during the French Revolution?


1) Does this photo prove that the Americans killed 20,000,000 Germans in their concentration camps after the war?
2) Does this photo prove that the Germans killed 6,000,000 Jews with Zyklon B in the concentration camps?
3) Does this photo prove that the Communists in Russia starved people in 1932-33 famine in Ukraine?

The correct answer is: 3), according to wikipedia. According to official historiography Communists killed millions of Ukrainians in that famine. This photo alone does not prove this claim, of course.

The point I'm making is that pictures alone prove only what they show. If there are hundreds of dead bodies in one picture, then it proves only that there were hundreds of bodies who have died. It requires other evidence, such as autopsies or documents, which determine how many altogether died in a certain place at a certain time and how.

There are many photos from the German concentration camps which prove only what they show: hundreds or thousands of bodies died in the German concentration camps. Other documentation proves hundreds of thousands of people - at least 300,000 according to Red Cross - died in the German concentration camps during WW2.


Yes there might have been some horrific experiments done to concentration camp inmates. But some of those claimed experiments might be also exaggerated or misunderstood. And some of the alleged experiments might have been only ordinary surgeries to sick people, who did not understand what was being done to them. One example: read Lectures on the Holocaust, pages 482-483:

Quote:4.6.3.10. Rajzla Sadowska
R: As a Jewish prisoner at Auschwitz, Mrs. Sadowska had suffered such a serious
work-related accident that she could not work anymore. She reported:1295
“Since I now was no longer fit to work, I feared that I would be gassed. It
had become general knowledge that all those unfit for work were gassed.”
R: She was therefore selected and, no, not gassed as she feared and must be expected,
if the legend were true, but taken to the camp hospital until she made a
recovery. After seven days she was once again selected, this time by the notorious
SS Dr. Mengele. He is claimed to have conducted very painful experiments
on Mrs. Sadowska, which she did not specify. She claimed to have been a human
cripple after these experiments. If the legend were true, then she had to be
gassed after that, because now she was not only unfit for labor, but also unfit
for further experiments, as she stated. But another miracle happened: she was
again nurtured back to good health.1296
Note what happened here: A female Jewish inmate in Auschwitz had a severe
accident and was sent to the hospital, where she was treated well for a week.
Next, an SS doctor did some unpleasant surgery on her, after which she was allowed
to completely recover to good health. This clearly proves that the SS did
everything – including surgery – to restore that woman’s health in order to
keep her fit for work. But in her post-war interview, Mrs. Sadowska tries to
turn her positive experience of healthcare in Auschwitz upside down. Note
also, that the investigating officer interviewing her in 1959 did not try to find
out, what kind of experiment (=surgery) had been performed on her. This
proves once more the docile naiveté of these interrogators.
That Mrs. Sadowska’s experiences in Germany during the war cannot have
been all that horrible, is also proven by the fact that Mrs. Sadowska chose to
live in Germany after the war, because she didn’t like the climate in Israel.
Into this pattern fits a “selection” that Mrs. Sadowska claimed to have experienced
immediately after arriving at the camp. Destination: Three months quarantine
for all those new prisoners who arrived with Mrs. Sadowska. After this
quarantine was over in order to ensure that all prisoners were healthy, these
women were subjected to yet another selection, after which most of them were
transferred into other huts. Later they were transported away per trucks, upon
which these ladies are said to have sung their “final song,” as Mrs. Sadowska
claims.
L: How did she know that this song was their final song?
R: As a matter of fact, she didn’t. She only concluded from the fact that she saw
these women never again that they had been killed. But that is, of course, nonsense,
because had murder been the intention of the SS, then they would have
saved the trouble of feeding these women for three months during the quarantine
time. Also, people singing songs while being transported on trucks hardly
support the theses that they thought they were driven to their executions.

If you are interested in what did not happen in the holocaust and what really did happen, read the 'Holocaust Analysis': http://conspiracycentral.info/index.php?showtopic=14598
Or read the best book about the subject: Lectures on the Holocaust (2005)
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/loth/
http://vho.org/dl/ENG/loth.pdf
A very scholarly and easy to read, with 1300 footnotes to furhter reading.

[standvast]

Quote:Knowing that there are many many thousands of holocaust survivors out there, with tattoos on arms and photographic evidence, and the camps are still there for you to go see with your own eyes, and seeing the parallel between fascist Germany and modern America, and knowing full well that Jews play only a small part in the world-wide intelligence agency scheming of global conspiratorial efforts to unite the world in one grim, shitty nation of haves and slaves,
I can't help but think that many of you simply hold a bias against Jews and probably don't know any or haven't had any meaningful association with them.

Forget associating, by traditional rabbinical stance / perspective i am Jewish,
why? my mom is and my grandma and her mom, but none of us think of
ourselves as Jewish, let alone that we hold jewish tradition / beliefs /religion.
My maternal ancesters came from Poland, yes " ooooh "Ashkenazim",
but my, mom's , grandma's "cultural background" stems from Holland and Indonesia
and has contained little to no imput or tradition one would consider typical to
any of many forms of Jewish culture.
One of my close friends is a Sephardim, but he doesn't consider
himself jewish neither, and "his culture" is as Dutch as mine [allthough he considers himself Portugese].
Besides me and some of my friends , i know some People who do consider
themselves Jewish, but don't consider being jewish a racial issue nor
do they agree with Israeli policy or zionism. go figure.
My grandpa hid from the Nazi's for 2 years in a small room, he's not Jewish by any definition,
my point of telling you is the contrast that nearing the last 2 years of WW2
it didn't matter if you where Jewish according
to the people i know and trust on the issue, every dissident was shot.
So who's Jewish ? and how does that work in numbers of the dead in camps in war ?

Do the people on Con-Cen hold a bias against "jews"? no.
I don't have a bias against jews, and i assume most here do not,
I don't have a particular hatred towards jewish supremacists either, as in,
i pity any fool who choses to deprive him/herself of being on equal ground with any other human / being,
and the point is i don't care for the reasoning by which any person views me as lesser,
beyond a common interest, it's the fact that they do that pisses me off.

Quote:I can't help but think that many of you simply hold a bias against Jews and probably don't know any or haven't had any meaningful association with them.

I can't speak for everyone and won't, but as for me, i don't hate people. period.
I like some jews and don't like some others, but i also like some christians and
dislike other christians, same goes for any group sorted under one dysfunctional title/label.
this dislike is not a form of hatred, it's natural response to someone trying to
or thinking in a manner that is degrading to [my] human nature/being.
I find for myself it has been usefull to learn to distinguish a system from the people,
even though people propel the system that enslaves them, unknowingly or not.

Quote:What say you?

About the Holocaust?

It didnt happen like my schoolbooks told me , that's for sure.
A lot of people died in WW2 , no single group has a monopoly on dying.
The sentiments around it are amplified to suit a purpose,
regardless of the Death toll one believes accurate, no ?
need i refer you to other historical instances of camps torture and genocide, no ,
you named one for yourself and could probably think of many more, further back or modern.

Applying historical perspective, can you name any other example of a state regime
which has been given a carte blanche on account of a "people"
[a quite hodge podge bunch of different people that is] having suffered during a war ?
How come whenever one is made to think of a horrible brutal historical tyrant "Hitler"
pops in mind of most, [i don't like Hitler] and why not Reagan, queen Elizabeth or Charlemagne ?

I can see your point if you would have brought up that zionism can appear
to get an unbalanced amount of attention on these boards, compared to other
forms /shapes/types [or the central theme ;] of supremacist ideology.
But then again, Zionism has the best funded lobby, the most influence on the US,
allied intrest groups throughout Europe and in the UK....

Quote:I suppose I should at least include that my point is, the holocaust was a long time ago, and it clearly did happen in some degree, why do you all feel it so necessary to downplay it's significance and focus on the "accuracy" of the event?

Part knee jerk reactions, part honest intent at balancing the information,
part serious investigations getting at the facts beyond post war propaganda
and stories.
Keep in mind that it's pretty hard to deny how this event was
imprinted on children in Europe and the US , how much effort the lobbys
put in keeping the memory alive , and connecting it to modern day Israeli State identity in twisted ways.
Why is it, that people who are not known for anti-judaic sentiment , and
esteemed as scholars in general say Finkelstein or Chomsky, can be smeared
and labeled as anti-semitic, or in Finkelsteins case even a "holocaust denier"
when questioning post war politics / state of Israel / misappropriation of Holocaust victims relief funds ?
An active stream of propaganda inflow requires active debunking ?
It wasn't that long ago , only 2/3 generations, and the fact that there
are people with tattoos and camps to visit does not affirm the official version of events
or motivations to them one iota, i think.
Have i been there ? yes i've been to Auschwitz and Dachau twice.
does that make me believe millions of people where gassed?
no, seeing the camps did not prove any of that.

Quote:Why can't we investigate it?
Who paid for it?
Who gained from it?

Are these not valid questions >?
Is there any other historical event that gets defended to the detail of
the official numbers, motivations, happenings / sentiment-laden "repairational" drain of funds ?
Would you believe this other example of such an event if there was one ?

Quote:I'm seriously not just trying to be an asshole myself; it's just with the vast amount of information out there, this seems like the last of my, or any of our, problems.

I'm not trying to be an asshole either.
Is it really the last of our problems ?
If you think it's silly to accept the official 9-11 report than you should at least
encourage the unofficial reporters, or investigate for yourself and get peer review,
which is possible, should be possible and expected on a forum like this one.

What is any different about the holocaust ?

---------

Quote:I'm back and ready to inflame
subtitle: why I think many of you are assholes

*Edit,
I can be an asshole, it doesn't take a hard try,
since you said you wasn't trying, that means to me you can act like one aswell...
you re-entered the pound stating you think most of the folks here "are assholes"
We are all still learning, lets not state things to rigidly, ok ?
if your mind's still open formulate your words accordingly.


peace'

[Konev]

Quote:Knowing that there are many many thousands of holocaust survivors out there, with tattoos on arms and photographic evidence, and the camps are still there for you to go see with your own eyes, and seeing the parallel between fascist Germany and modern America, and knowing full well that Jews play only a small part in the world-wide intelligence agency scheming of global conspiratorial efforts to unite the world in one grim, shitty nation of haves and slaves,

I can't help but think that many of you simply hold a bias against Jews and probably don't know any or haven't had any meaningful association with them.

What say you?

EDIT: I suppose I should at least include that my point is, the holocaust was a long time ago, and it clearly did happen in some degree, why do you all feel it so necessary to downplay it's significance and focus on the "accuracy" of the event?

2nd EDIT: I'm seriously not just trying to be an asshole myself; it's just with the vast amount of information out there, this seems like the last of my, or any of our, problems.

Well if the Germans were really trying to exterminate ALL of the European Jewry, why are there so many survivors? If the Germans went through the trouble of bothering to destroy ALL the evidence - documents, 'gas chamber' buildings and even bothered to dig up the hundreds of thousands of bodies from the mass graves - why didnt they kill the "survivors" also? (in the concentration camps). If the Germans had the time to do all this, which took many days and months, why didnt they bother to shoot the rest of the eyewitnesses too? Shooting them would have taken only some hours.

Lets read an interesting quote from the famous "Holocaust survivor" Elie Wiesel:
When the Red Army was about to overrun Auschwitz in January 1945, the Germans evacuated the camp, but left it up to the sick inmates to decide whether they wanted to flee with the Germans or await the arrival of the Red Army. Some of Wiesel’s exact words of how he and his father made their decision read as follows:[1232]
“The choice was in our hands. For once we could decide our fate for ourselves.
We could both stay in the hospital, where I could, thanks to my doctor,
get him [the father] entered as a patient or nurse. Or else we could follow
the others. ‘Well, what shall we do, father?’ He was silent. ‘Let’s be
evacuated with the others,’ I told him.”

For years Elie Wiesel and his father, so they claimed later, had been living in hell, where people had been burned alive in masses. The living inmates had been abused and mistreated with all methods one can think of. Then early 1945 there was a chance to flee from the clutches of these mass murderers and to be liberated by the advancing Russians. And how did they decide? They decided to flee from their liberators with
their diabolic mass murderers. They decided to remain slave workers in the hell created by the evil Germans. They decided to reach out for the uncertainty of the cold and dark night under the guard of their German Satans. Ladies and Gentlemen! Here the key to the truth lies hidden! Elie Wiesel and his father feared the liberation by the Red Army more than they feared what ever the Germans or what ever fate would do to them when fleeing. In order to show that this is not a single case, I may support this with statements by Primo Levi. In his entry of January 17, 1945, Levi writes in his book Survival in Auschwitz, how he would have followed common instincts and would have joined the other inmates that fled with the SS, if only he had not been so sick:[1233]
“It was not a question of reasoning: I would probably also have followed the
instinct of the flock if I had not felt so weak: fear is supremely contagious,
and its immediate reaction is to make one try to run away.”
Keep in mind: The fear he writes about here is the one that drove the inmates – he talks about the instinct of the flock – and which drove them to flee with the Germans. They therefore did not fear the Germans, but the Russians. And Levi even gives us the result of this referendum by feet: 800 mostly incapacitated
inmates decided to stay in Auschwitz, but 20,000 others joined the National Socialist mass murderers.

Wiesel and Levi, two of the most influential atrocity propagandists against the Germans, admit here in the midst of their most important propaganda works – unnoticed by a world lulled into believing their atrocity stories – that they did not really fear the Germans. What would you expect how both would have reacted
if they themselves had believed in their own stories?
[...]
[1232] E. Wiesel, Night, (1960) p. 78.
[1233] P. Levi, Survival in Auschwitz, 1986.

Interesting, isnt it?

Read more: http://conspiracycentral.info/index.php?showtopic=14598

In addition there were also tens of thousands of Jewish soldiers in the German army - 150,000 according to one book cited in the video The Final Solution to Adolph Hitler - and there was also cooperation between Zionists and the leadership of the Nazi Germany (See: Encyclopaedia Judaica: 'Haavara' article). Obviously this only makes sense if there was no policy to exterminate ALL of the European Jewry.



I already dealt with the "photographic evidence" and the "camps to see" in my previous post.

Quote:I can't help but think that many of you simply hold a bias against Jews and probably don't know any or haven't had any meaningful association with them.

I dont think that nobody holds any bias against the Jews, especially not to individual Jews with whom we "[...] haven't had any meaningful association with them". The problem, in my opinion, is the Jewish and Zionist leaders and the Judaism as a whole. Jews and Zionists (Judaism as a whole headed by their leaders [political leaders, financial leaders, and media leaders/moguls]) do NOT have "some minor role in NWO", they are the driving force behind it! It is in their religious writings - Talmud, Kabballah & Zohar - to be "God's Chosen People" who are "destined to rule the world".

“All continents will become united in a world alliance, at whose disposal will be an international police force. All armies will be abolished, and there will be no more wars. In Jerusalem, the United Nations (a truly United Nations) will build a shrine of the Prophets to serve the federated union of all continents; this will be the scene of the Supreme Court of Mankind, to settle all controversies among the federated continents, as prophesied by Isaiah.” (Look magazine, Jan. 1962)

http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/bengur62.jpg

This is the ultimate agenda of the New [Jewish] World Order, presented by the Jewish former prime minister of Israel.

Quote:EDIT: I suppose I should at least include that my point is, the holocaust was a long time ago, and it clearly did happen in some degree, why do you all feel it so necessary to downplay it's significance and focus on the "accuracy" of the event?

I feel it necessary to look at what really happened, because it is not allowed to be looked at in many countries, which is already in itself enough for me to look at it in more detail. I have discovered that the degree to which it happened, is so much less than what has been alleged (there were no homicidal nazi gas chambers and only about 1-2 million Jews altogether died), that it could be even stated that there was no holocaust. But if you define the holocaust to mean all the Jews who died of causes during WW2, then of course there was a holocaust to some degree (I use this definition).

I already explained in my previous post why it is very important to "focus ont he "accuracy" of the event". Doing that will demolish the shield which Jews and Zionists have against us. Unless people are free of the "holocaust spell", they very likely will not understand the power which the Jews and Zionists have in the world, because "the spell" prevents them from looking at it.

People will also start to read the history of the Jews more critically and start to ask the obvious questions: "Why were the Jews persecuted so much?" and "What excactly did the Nazis do to the Jews and WHY?" And then the answers definetely will NOT be: "Because all the ignorant and prejudiced evil Europeans, just for some unexplained reason, always hated the "poor, innocent, inoffensive and righteous Jews"".

The Holocaust is the key to understand the Jews and Zionists, their history and their enormous power.

[Konev]

In addition:

It is the official historiography which downplays the significance of the Holocaust:
- Communists in Soviet Union killed 66 million*
- Communists in China killed 70 million**
- Altogether = 136 million for communists
- 6 million for the Nazis
- Conclusion: Communists killed about 20 times more people than the Nazis;
- so the Communists were bad but not so bad, and the Nazis were the devil incarnate because they killed 20 times less people...? (the popular view)

* Real estimates for Soviet Union 20-66, 20-30 million seem to be the credible ones.
** Real estimates for Communist China: 40-70 million.


But because of the enormous media power of the Jews, we only hear about hundred times more about the Nazis' Six Million than the Communists' 100 million.

[triplesix]

First off, sorry about posting it in the wrong place, I wasn't quite sure where this topic best deserved to be posted.

I understand all of your arguments. I've been a member of the site for a while and have read through the facts being presented.

That said, I don't dispute that numbers may have been exaggerated and I don't dispute that there are many other genocides happening all around the world that dwarf the number of individuals killed in the Holocaust.

My point is that, #1, it shouldn't downplay the significance of what actually did happen. #2, it should still stand as a lesson that even educated people in a modern society can be diabolically manipulated. And lastly, #3, that hardly explains why of all the ethnic genocides, false flag operations, and opportunistic exploitation of tragedies many of you choose to devote your hatred and anger onto a largely phantom and ill-defined subculture of "Zionist" Jews. Specifically so many years after the event.

To blame Israel for war in the Middle East is naive. The bad blood between Jews and Muslims extends back to the very origins of Islam.

And of course any arm chair historian knows that Stalin killed far more people in the gulags, but that's because he was a power-hungry paranoid schizophrenic, not because he was attempting to ethnically cleanse Russia, though he may have been doing it inadvertently in the process.

Whether or not Hitler was manipulated by anyone doesn't forgive the nation of Germany for participation in the Holocaust.

I've just yet to be persuaded, as the Jewish case for victimization has about 4000 more years of history to it.

EDIT: Going back and re-reading some posts, I'd like to address the Israel lobby in the USA and the supposed power structure of Mossad and how it compares to the CIA, ISI, MI5/6, etc. Personally, looking at the situation between Israel and the US, I disagree that Mossad is more powerful and that Israel is in a position to manipulate government decisions.

It is in the USA's best interest to fund Israel and support Israel's cause in the Middle East. Islamic fundamentalism was a tactic of sealing in Communist expansion. To cover their asses they supply and maintain Israel's war machine. In turn, Israel develops cutting edge technology which is shared and exchanged with the US. I think 90% of this is simply because your average Bush-supporting, Republican-4-Lifers identify better with Jews and Israel than Muslims and Saudi Arabia, et al (regardless of that strategic alliance.) I don't think Israel, with its tiny land mass, small GDP, and unstable situation are any position to manipulate the "world's only superpower.)

[Blackthor]

Fam! I said "bring your own sword" and you bring a pocket knife!

Quote:It is in the USA's best interest to fund Israel and support Israel's cause in the Middle East. Islamic fundamentalism was a tactic of sealing in Communist expansion. To cover their asses they supply and maintain Israel's war machine. In turn, Israel develops cutting edge technology which is shared and exchanged with the US.

First, "It is in the USA's best interest to fund Israel and support Israel's cause in the Middle East.' How? What benefit is it of the US to support Israel, strategic or any other? The US "prove" with Iraq and Afganistan that if it has a problem with anyone in the Middle East, it (the US) will handle it themselves! What part has Israel played in all the US military action going on in the Middle East now? If they're participating any it's miniscule at best.

Second "To cover their asses they supply and maintain Israel's war machine. In turn, Israel develops cutting edge technology which is shared and exchanged with the US." And Israel's war machine has benefitted no one but Israel! Hell, Israel has turned it's "war Machine" on the US before. And what technology has Israel produced that benefitted the US, that the US couldn't produce itself? As you said, the US supplies Israel's war machine, and defense technology is really the only technological interest the US has (or ever had), and Israel gets their's from the US!

[Konev]

Quote:First off, sorry about posting it in the wrong place, I wasn't quite sure where this topic best deserved to be posted.

I understand all of your arguments. I've been a member of the site for a while and have read through the facts being presented.

That said, I don't dispute that numbers may have been exaggerated and I don't dispute that there are many other genocides happening all around the world that dwarf the number of individuals killed in the Holocaust.

My point is that, #1, it shouldn't downplay the significance of what actually did happen. #2, it should still stand as a lesson that even educated people in a modern society can be diabolically manipulated. And lastly, #3, that hardly explains why of all the ethnic genocides, false flag operations, and opportunistic exploitation of tragedies many of you choose to devote your hatred and anger onto a largely phantom and ill-defined subculture of "Zionist" Jews. Specifically so many years after the event.
[...]

#1:
What do you believe happened? Do you believe in the gas chambers? If you do, how many do you think were killed in them: 3 - 4,5 million?

If there was no "industrial genocide of Jews in the gas chambers of the death camps´", then what is the so incredibly horrible and unique thing about the Holocaust? Nazis shot tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of Jews? How many Russians did the Nazis shoot? How many Germans did the Russians shoot? (Many millions.) So what? That is what happens when there is a World War. If Nazis did not kill the 6 million in the gas chambers - rather only some hundreds of thousands - then it inevitably does downplay the significance of what actually happened. If there were no "gas chambers in the death camps", then it is about the same thing as there was no holocaust.

#2:
If there "was no Holocaust", then there cannot be any lesson to learned from it. This also applies if we define the Holocaust to mean all the Jews who died of all causes during WW2, because without the "industrial genocide" the significance of the Holocaust is so low that there is no lesson to be learned from it.


In my opinionion it is the logical conclusion that if "there was no Holocaust", then the Nazis were not that bad. They might have been bad, but not that bad. But because the Jews* have taught us that Nazis = Devil, they have become a symbol of evil. It has become our moral value to view Nazis as the "devil incarnate" and to condemn them always, which makes it difficult to look at them and WW2 objectively, for many people.


* Obviously I do not mean ALL Jews, just some Jewish organisations.

[triplesix]

I admit that I don't bring that impressive of a weapon to the table, but my knowledge regarding Israel is admittedly short.

I fail to understand why so many people have chosen it to be the focus of their research. It seems that Jews are unfairly targeted in the forum, considering the vast array of guilty parties throughout the world.

Furthermore, if Holocaust revisionism is used for the tangential purpose of Nazi revisionism, as in, painting the Nazi party in a more favourable light, then it is even more unpalatable.

I suppose the problem is I don't want to focus on the Jews, not because the Jews* have put forth an effort to scare me away from doing so, but simply because I find myself sympathetic to their cause.**

And Blackthor, what I meant by the "in the USA's best interest" I sort of meant "in the USA*'s best interest", if I may be a bit facetious. I meant, it is in the Kissingeresque, anti-Communist, Western hegemony political strategists' best interest. For reasons that are quite obvious.

As far as Israel's contribution to the US war machine, who's to say exactly what is being exchanged between whom and who is getting the best deal. Obviously as far as trading tanks and bullets, it goes one way. Services and black projects... few people know.

**EDIT: What I mean by sympathetic to their cause, is the Israelites, as a culture group, trace their history back to that region. Palestinians on the other hand are more like Arabic gypsies, tossed out from region after region with little claim to any specific region. Like the struggle of modern indigenous populations in Canada, the US, and Australia, Israelites find themselves without a country to call home. It is difficult as a WASP to comprehend the difficulties one faces in this position, but I can sympathize with what being unrepresented throughout the entire world might feel like. It is, of course, the way of the world to usurp and dominate other cultures, often times displacing them in the process. Not always though do I believe that to the winner should go all the spoils.

[byrd]

Quote:First off, sorry about posting it in the wrong place, I wasn't quite sure where this topic best deserved to be posted.

I understand all of your arguments. I've been a member of the site for a while and have read through the facts being presented.

That said, I don't dispute that numbers may have been exaggerated and I don't dispute that there are many other genocides happening all around the world that dwarf the number of individuals killed in the Holocaust.

My point is that, #1, it shouldn't downplay the significance of what actually did happen. #2, it should still stand as a lesson that even educated people in a modern society can be diabolically manipulated. And lastly, #3, that hardly explains why of all the ethnic genocides, false flag operations, and opportunistic exploitation of tragedies many of you choose to devote your hatred and anger onto a largely phantom and ill-defined subculture of "Zionist" Jews. Specifically so many years after the event.

To blame Israel for war in the Middle East is naive. The bad blood between Jews and Muslims extends back to the very origins of Islam.

And of course any arm chair historian knows that Stalin killed far more people in the gulags, but that's because he was a power-hungry paranoid schizophrenic, not because he was attempting to ethnically cleanse Russia, though he may have been doing it inadvertently in the process.

Whether or not Hitler was manipulated by anyone doesn't forgive the nation of Germany for participation in the Holocaust.

I've just yet to be persuaded, as the Jewish case for victimization has about 4000 more years of history to it.

EDIT: Going back and re-reading some posts, I'd like to address the Israel lobby in the USA and the supposed power structure of Mossad and how it compares to the CIA, ISI, MI5/6, etc. Personally, looking at the situation between Israel and the US, I disagree that Mossad is more powerful and that Israel is in a position to manipulate government decisions.

It is in the USA's best interest to fund Israel and support Israel's cause in the Middle East. Islamic fundamentalism was a tactic of sealing in Communist expansion. To cover their asses they supply and maintain Israel's war machine. In turn, Israel develops cutting edge technology which is shared and exchanged with the US. I think 90% of this is simply because your average Bush-supporting, Republican-4-Lifers identify better with Jews and Israel than Muslims and Saudi Arabia, et al (regardless of that strategic alliance.) I don't think Israel, with its tiny land mass, small GDP, and unstable situation are any position to manipulate the "world's only superpower.)

some of your posts lately have really been blowing my mind. but ill take particular notice to jut a couple sentences here, as im pretty drunk and still up from last night, so ill have to be going to bed soon. anyhoo..

Quote:To blame Israel for war in the Middle East is naive.

are you kidding me? do you really wanna try to debate who and what got these wars going, and who benefited? the MAIN REASON FOR THESE WARS IS ISRAEL. for you to say any blame on Israel is being naive is seriously blowing my mind its so outrageous. i wont even bother explaining anything here the evidence is throughout the site.

Quote:Going back and re-reading some posts, I'd like to address the Israel lobby in the USA and the supposed power structure of Mossad and how it compares to the CIA, ISI, MI5/6, etc. Personally, looking at the situation between Israel and the US, I disagree that Mossad is more powerful and that Israel is in a position to manipulate government decisions.

again, ridiculous. your saying israel doesnt manipulate the US govt?? im seriously having a hard time even believing that you really buy what your saying. its so outrageous silly and obviously wrong. you must know this. israels own leaders are quoted saying we the jewish people control america and america knows this. its a matter of common knowledge at this point i would have assumed.

Quote:It is in the USA's best interest to fund Israel and support Israel's cause in the Middle East. Islamic fundamentalism was a tactic of sealing in Communist expansion.

the 1st sentence is the exact opposite of reality. what the hell is wrong with you. do you really believe what your saying? or are you just saying it cuz you think you should? i really dont get you man.

its certainly not! in the US's best interest to fund and support israel. because that means they are supporting an illegal occupation, genocide, and a host of other horrible daily occurances at the hands of Israelis. not only is just about everything illegal and wrong with the forming of that country, but it continues to break national laws every day, it continues to steal land to this day, it continues to cut the Palestinians off from more and more of their land, turning the left over areas for them to live in, into swiss cheese, and it continues to be an outright racist, supremacist state. you cannot disagree with any of that. yet you support it im assuming because you think you should? cuz you belive the lies?

whatever your problem is its wrong. straight up. you support that state, you are wrong. the amount of wrong shit that you are in turn supporting with the endorsement of israel is overwhelming.


the holocaust was a lie. from what happened, to how it happened, to why it happened, to who did it, to who was a victim of it, etc. there is more disinformation and lies surrounding this event than probably any other in history. your just another manipulated scammed fuck who believes what they were told when you believe the official story of the holohoax. period.

[Guest]

Quote:Knowing that there are many many thousands of holocaust survivors out there, with tattoos on arms and photographic evidence, and the camps are still there for you to go see with your own eyes, and seeing the parallel between fascist Germany and modern America, and knowing full well that Jews play only a small part in the world-wide intelligence agency scheming of global conspiratorial efforts to unite the world in one grim, shitty nation of haves and slaves,

I can't help but think that many of you simply hold a bias against Jews and probably don't know any or haven't had any meaningful association with them.

What say you?

I think the more survivors there are, the more it belies the "offical holocaust story" dont you?

IOW the more survivors, the less likey der endlosung auf judenfrage exists eh?

[Guest]

Quote:

Quote:Knowing that there are many many thousands of holocaust survivors out there, with tattoos on arms and photographic evidence, and the camps are still there for you to go see with your own eyes, and seeing the parallel between fascist Germany and modern America, and knowing full well that Jews play only a small part in the world-wide intelligence agency scheming of global conspiratorial efforts to unite the world in one grim, shitty nation of haves and slaves,

I can't help but think that many of you simply hold a bias against Jews and probably don't know any or haven't had any meaningful association with them.

What say you?

I think the more survivors there are, the more it belies the "offical holocaust story" dont you?

IOW the more survivors, the less likey der endlosung auf judenfrage exists eh?

Imagine if 100 thousand NASA employees said they were in the Apollo program and landed on the moon... not only impossible... stupid too yes?

Same for the holohoax.;)

[justice]

Passing specal laws to stop anyone asking questions of an event is not only stupid but does little to make people beleive the offical line of events.

next it will be against the law to question the events of 9/11 or voter counts.

we all need to unite to stop these type of laws being past and if i want to go about saying that Elvis lives on the moon then i must be allowed to.

[Coffinman]

Zyklon B was widely used worldwide to fumigate clothing and bedding.
There is still a facility at Ellis Island that used it.
Zyklon B is wood or clay chips that are impregnated with cyanide.
It is a slow release agent.
For the fumes to be generated the Zyklon B has to be spread on a DRY floor and have warm, dry air passed over it.
If it were used in damp conditions as described (being poured onto cramped, panicking people) then much of the poison released would be retained in the moisture on the walls, floor and of course the bodies.
They would be extremely hazardous to move, and they would contaminate any ground they were buried in.
And of course you might only kill those who actually had skin contact with the pellets, as little gas would be liberated from them when used in that way.
Hardly the way the great German engineers would have gone about things.