What If We Are Crashing The System?

[Milstein]

I wonder who is lost, I really do. So far you're not answering any questions and keep insisting that I'm lost in my ego, while referring to a fundamental something that cannot be named.

No offense, but I'm ending this discussion now. All you need to know about what I feel can be found in my posts - redundantly so. If you choose not to see the message, then I cannot help you. :smile:

Incidentally others have seen it. I've received plenty of PMs since this thread was revived and I'm glad to see that progress is indeed being made on the human level. Keep up the spirit folks, don't get lost in the words.

[itmakesmewonder]

LOL I have been speaking in a very simplistic way all day and am not ready for such semantics this evening.
I also feel very encouroged and hopeful for the con cen massive who are thinking quite sensitively these days.
I think if the intentions are pure, nothing is lost in these words.
Theres hope for all of us im sure.:)

[inc7]

And i stand alone, that by your logic makes me wrong. Do you hear your pride, thought you were removed from such, impossible while denying a fundamental truth, right in front of your eyes, you refuse to see, i have said it very plainly to see, now upon reflection.

A huge problem with the lost professionals in our society, why they cant see conspiracies etc, is because they cant believe it wouldn't already be self evident, they cant accept much of what they know a lie, they cant accept they been brainwashed.

I say you have not even understood the basic concept of ego i set forward, and have not refuted any logic or relation, and all of your questions lead me to think, your a professional repeater, repeating a position you have takin in and identified with, giving very little real thought , and now that something challenges it, you bubble with pride, and refuse to engage.

Ya best maybe we stop, however I desire dialogue, its where i derive inspiration to write, a feeling that flows through the keys, seeing error everywhere and wanting to correct, like someone who needs to put everything in strait lines.

Its not a pissing contest as i herd it sated els where, but in fact true debate, very little competitive spirit, just a desire to be understood.

[Milstein]

Just a quick question to other readers of this thread: do you agree with what inc is accusing me of? I can't for the life in me see what he sees.

If you do I would appreciate if you would give it a few words, thanks in advance.

[itmakesmewonder]

Hey Milstein,
i may be wrong but, I dont think there is accusation maybe frustration in not being able to express fully what it is that needs to be expressed.
Inc have some patience, sometimes people (i) dont want to go into depth and hide behind sweeping statements or non commital comments.
We have to do some sketches before painting the cistine chapel.

[itmakesmewonder]

I think we are looking to be understood here. i make no sense either.....
sorry

[inc7]

Look a popularity contest, your not concerned with truth, but stayin atop a perch.

I have no regard for popularity, i revel in standing alone in this world, where even the ones claiming to be free are lost on many levels, and chose to stay lost, they love the representation of system as its developed in them.

I dont need affirmation form other ppl, i have affirmation in seeing the order of life and the universe, the inherent truth in everything, not a superficial acknowledgement such may or may not exist, but see the providence and governing forces and there manifestations.

Ill leave you to your perch.

[hardboiled11]

hm

[standvast]

milstein Wrote:Just a quick question to other readers of this thread: do you agree with what inc is accusing me of? I can't for the life in me see what he sees.

If you do I would appreciate if you would give it a few words, thanks in advance.

I'll give it a shot.

Inc Wrote:im not talking on a superficial level, but trying to illustrate underlining principles, not ppl places and things, but that which governs them, the ideas relations and concepts.

Dude you are either not using the right [descriptive] words/syntax to get your conceptualization across, [from one intellect to another i may add :suspicious:]
if that's not the case and your formula
carries the meaning you intended, it sounds to me like you've overlooked some basics.


IMHO]
People are not governed by "ideas relations and concepts" - concepts and ideas exist in the human mind solely.
In case you disagree, show me an example of a concept which humans didn't conceptualize. :smile:
Relations and interconnection exist everywhere that humans see separate parts within a whole,
that they label "things" and then pretend that "things" exist in absence or independent of the backdrop that is everything else.

Quote:I think you not understand my post, the words i mean in very literal ways at times, and should be thought of as such, think of defining key words and relating meaning, look for the logic, the order, not dwell on the thing, but the meaning behind it.

Meaning is given to things by the human cognizant mind , intellect is required to establish a sense / system of
"value" which is what "the meaning of something" is - the sum of what values humans ascribe to it.
So yeah you are right, i don't understand your post, i'm trying to figure out Why you are so
convinced there is Universal Law which would be the governing principle to everything,
and why it is that you fail to recognize that others may have similar notions but different words to them.
I think I recognize Universal laws, or an underlying principle, or "God" ,and likely
can't put the essence to paper either, i think Milstein , you , and others around have the same "gift",
consider it either an exercise of futility to debate our beliefs, or a complementary learning process.
How come you, Inc, by intellect, which you sometimes mistakenly call "heart" [because it is sentiment laden],
can see through the literal and get a glimpse of the principle "One truth" ...but others can't ?

Itmakesmewonder Wrote:i may be wrong but, I dont think there is accusation maybe frustration in not being able to express fully what it is that needs to be expressed.

A lot is lost in words, a lot is lost in the thoughts to the words even,
that makes it important to ask for clarification whenever something
doesn't make sense or seems skewed.

Inc Wrote:I dont need affirmation form other ppl, i have affirmation in seeing the order of life and the universe, the inherent truth in everything, not a superficial acknowledgement such may or may not exist, but see the providence and governing forces and there manifestations.

Kind of "a moronic statement" given that you started a 10+ page Bible = truth thread
and are still trying to dish out the deepest understandings within your belief/experience to relative strangers on the internet.

Inc from the Bible is Truth thread Wrote:To all, im interested to see how what im saying is being interpreted, and if you can at least leave the door open on the bible, i think much ignorance is because the door is shut, if you seek truth, its a huge error.

Is the Bible prerequisite >?
the bible is pretty "human" by any logical standard.

So you don't need "the rest of humanity" as you have quite enough of it by yourself ? :wink:
that's fine,..periods of isolation can be comforting and very refreshing.

Inc Wrote:And i stand alone, that by your logic makes me wrong

You stand alone at what exactly ?
To the extent we all "stand alone" ?


Peace'

[inc7]

I havnt looked any further then

------
IMHO]
People are not governed by "ideas relations and concepts" - concepts and ideas exist in the human mind solely.
In case you disagree, show me an example of a concept which humans didn't conceptualize. smile.gif
Relations and interconnection exist everywhere that humans see separate parts within a whole,
that they label "things" and then pretend that "things" exist in absence or independent of the backdrop that is everything else.
--------

That is my very point, we are governed by a level more fundamental then our perspective. Our perspective is only a window into this order that governs everything. ex. - Is it your perspective that keeps order within your DNA and everything that is functioning on a cellular level, the order of which in such symmetry and harmony, astonishingly complex, and yet simple, an ecosystem of such balance and order, life is a marvel of governance. Governance a perspective, what??

Its necessary to speak and understand in terms of ideas, relation, and concepts to see this providence, order. It is the language of logic, logic being the demonstration of order, there by inseparable from concepts, relations and ideas. And there in proves a ONE truth, in the existance of everything, which can be stated as relations, concepts and ideas, and is governing everything beyond perspective.

All tho perspective not necessary for governance, and exposes the dualism in which man exist, the false reality(s), more every day. That is man in his ego has strayed from the truth of life into perspective.

Reading some of the rest of what you say Standvast, i say --> There is a reality outside of mans perspective, one that is observable and is governed at a fundamental level, Truth. Perspective or to say differently, the manifestation of ego (personality) which clouds this one reality "truth", in that if the one reality were know, the ego would cease to exist. You think your free of the system because you see some truths, and your relation to the system you see as external and physical, i say the fundamental element for the system to exist, lies within man and is at war with perspective, the ego, the "I". and is what i try to help you conceptualize, with previous post introducing ideas and relations.

To put simply, stand alone as in no supporters, in seeing there is one truth demonstrated and evident in everything, and can be stated factually using ideas relations and concepts, that nothing is a leap of faith or perspective. I dont speak my opinion, but observations of order.

To put another way, its like ppl are looking to the body to understand it, when looking at it in a cellular way gives much greater understanding of governance, a root level, well everything in life has a cellular level, a root governance can be seen, its not a perspective at that level but observations of models, everything in the universe is governed, there is no random, everything is fallowing laws.

[inc7]

I apologize Milstien, frustration got the better of me.

[standvast]

Quote:That is my very point, we are governed by a level more fundamental then our perspective. Our perspective is only a window into this order that governs everything. ex. - Is it your perspective that keeps order within your DNA and everything that is functioning on a cellular level, the order of which in such symmetry and harmony, astonishingly complex, and yet simple, an ecosystem of such balance and order, life is a marvel of governance. Governance a perspective, what??

IMHO]
I'd say we [life] exist[s] on a plane other than registered by our human 5-sense consciousness,
it, in concept , is hardly understood by us as we for the large part look at it in seperate
intantanious "happenings" instead of a continuous cyclical process.
So life is even without humans to envision perspectives of it ,
or break it up into "things" and "order" it into governance.
Life [the essential elemental source / Spirit] is balanced AS IS
[as astonishingly complex and scattered or simplistic and indivisibly One as the beholder so beholds.

Quote:Its necessary to speak and understand in terms of ideas, relation, and concepts to see this providence, order. It is the language of logic, logic being the demonstration of order, there by inseparable from concepts, relations and ideas.

I go by this logic;

Quote:* A is true
* A is not true
* A is both true and not true
* A is neither true nor not true

Logic is not the mere demonstration of order, it is the choosing of a path which becomes order out of chaos.
Logic comes into existence when humans try to make sense of Chaos.

Quote:And there in proves a ONE truth, in the existance of everything, which can be stated as relations, concepts and ideas, and is governing everything beyond perspective.

No, for it can only be delivered from a perspective, a human perspective,
Allthough I agree that the existence of everything is proof of Life.

WIKI Wrote:Universal propositions

A universal proposition is one that affirms a property of all the members of a set. For instance, the proposition that all dogs are mortal and the proposition that all cows can fly are universal propositions, the former (assumedly) true and the latter false.[citation needed] A universal proposition is logically equivalent to the negation of an existential proposition. Thus, claiming that all cows can fly is equivalent to denying that there is a cow that cannot fly.

It may be noted, along the lines of Humean causal scepticism, that the only universal propositions that must be true are those that exist a priori, ~drawn from definitions~ (i.e. "All dogs are mammals"). Universal propositions that are drawn a posteriori, from one's experience of the world (i.e. "All dogs are born with four legs"), can never be confirmed as certainly true, simply supported as likely to be true give the evidence available, making such propositions falsifiable.

~Drawn from "Definitions" ~

Quote:Main Entry:
def·i·ni·tion Listen to the pronunciation of definition
Pronunciation:
\ˌde-fə-ˈni-shən\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English diffinicioun, from Anglo-French, from Latin definition-, definitio, from definire
Date:
14th century

1: an act of determining; specifically : the formal proclamation of a Roman Catholic dogma
2 a: a statement expressing the essential nature of something b: a statement of the meaning of a word
or word group or a sign or symbol <dictionary definitions> c: a product of defining
3: the action or process of defining
4 a: the action or the power of describing, explaining, or making definite and clear.

continued below, i ran out of quote tags.

[standvast]

Quote:All tho perspective not necessary for governance, and exposes the dualism in which man exist, the false reality(s), more every day. That is man in his ego has strayed from the truth of life into perspective.

Perspective can be quite broad , perspective is all we have,
the real sense of perspective comes from the gazillion of complementary perspectives
that's what i think makes the experience "Life" has [of itself] through matter.

Quote:Reading some of the rest of what you say Standvast, i say --> There is a reality outside of mans perspective, one that is observable and is governed at a fundamental level, Truth.

Quote:Perspective or to say differently, the manifestation of ego (personality) which clouds this one reality "truth", in that if the one reality were know, the ego would cease to exist.

How can a human observe without perspective ? , when you speak about concepts and relations,
you do understand that the words required to speak on these topics, only came from perspective ?
I don't think there is anything bad about the ego, or why it would exist if not for life begetting a tool.
If there where no ego's we would not be able to discuss this at all, we'd have no communication, no language, no need to interact verbally,

Quote:You think your free of the system because you see some truths, and your relation to the system you see as external and physical, i say the fundamental element for the system to exist, lies within man and is at war with perspective, the ego, the "I". and is what i try to help you conceptualize, with previous post introducing ideas and relations.

I sort of got the hang of it, but this idea of Ego consciousness being at war with ones essential life Spirit
is only "true" if you experience it that way , if you find Life in opposition to your Ego. :wink:

Quote:To put simply, stand alone as in no supporters, in seeing there is one truth demonstrated and evident in everything, and can be stated factually using ideas relations and concepts, that nothing is a leap of faith or perspective. I dont speak my opinion, but observations of order.

yes human observations of patterns in absolute Chaos.
What is this one truth ? Life, -self evident and reflecting on itself- .

Quote:To put another way, its like ppl are looking to the body to understand it, when looking at it in a cellular way gives much greater understanding of governance, a root level, well everything in life has a cellular level, a root governance can be seen, its not a perspective at that level but observations of models, everything in the universe is governed, there is no random, everything is fallowing laws.

We [humans] make the laws, bend the laws, adjust the laws,
we may observe "cause and effect" all in our own way , because we go by different models.
To say/think/assume there is one underlying Cause source or Governance i have no problem at all with,
i'd word it differently , but i think we mean the same.
To claim you can observe the intricate workings, the process, the energy, Life,
and that you can behold it's [divine] order / structure is only soothing to the mind, the ego :laugh:

"Reality is but a Rorschach Inkblot you know ?"

Peace'

[inc7]

Standvast,

Perspective being mans interpretation, like personality, when in fact maybe that being perceived has its own interpretation, governance, independent of man perceiving, an observable set of binding laws, governing characteristics. Actually first introduced to me as a Buddhist concept when i was 16. To become independent, that is dissociate bias from that with which you are observing. There a difference in perceiving through bias and through observation, observation being independent of influence.

That is, the way you state it, things wouldnt exist if man dose not perceive them. When in fact they do, and are bound by laws.

-------

Its not a perception that, ego is against spirit, its observable and very much the cause of its birth.
reread my posts on relationship between the polarization, its not perspection but observable in chemistry, and in personality. Very real cause and effect mechanisms to be observed. Model has been repeated a billion times over in humans, and is the real reason for current manifestation we call collective reality, collective perspective, its actually not grounded in laws that govern, truth on a fundamental level, but a lie on a fundamental level, It is the fundamental choice i stated in earlier posts.

An example i can change you perspective, personality, in a myriad of ways, simply by introducing any of a number of legal or illegal drugs. However the influence is truth, wither you want to see it, perceive it or not. The influence being that governing order.

I cant understand how you think its your perspective that governs the chemistry of life, or that there isnt any real cause and effect understandings beyond mere perspective, perspective may have an influence on a level yes, but perspective is not necessary, nor a component of the underline governing order.

Not to be rude, but i dont think you could have your perspective without smoking lots of pot all the time. Or maybe just high when writing this. Is this true, just wondering? For insight not judgement so much.

Its not grounded that is. Your logic is all over, and your obviously smarter then that.

[standvast]

Quote:That is, the way you state it, things wouldnt exist if man dose not perceive them.

Exactly, "things" wouldn't exist, the whole as One entity would still.

Quote:When in fact they do, and are bound by laws.

no not really, only if you set your mind to interpret chaos.

Quote:Its not a perception that, ego is against spirit, its observable and very much the cause of its birth.

a perception is something that is observable to a human.
Your personal perception is that Ego "is against' spirit, mine is that Ego is a mere tool of spirit.
Our perceptions differ, there is no one truth to observation.

Quote:It is the fundamental choice i stated in earlier posts.

yes , a choice made from out the ego-consciousness,
for what is beneath Ego consciousness is non-exclusive ; "Spirit " doesn't consciously choose.

Quote:An example i can change you perspective, personality, in a myriad of ways, simply by introducing any of a number of legal or illegal drugs. However the influence is truth, wither you want to see it, perceive it or not. The influence being that governing order.

Perhaps i'll get your point after you feed me the drugs.

Quote:I cant understand how you think its your perspective that governs the chemistry of life, or that there isnt any real cause and effect understandings beyond mere perspective, perspective may have an influence on a level yes, but perspective is not necessary, nor a component of the underline governing order.

The underlying order can not "make sense" if not to someones perspective.
how is the underlying order describable , or determinable without a conscious human ?
There are no objective observers, humans observe from a certain perspective,
I can't understand how you are so high-minded to think you can make out the structure of Life itself
and its "governing' properties while making no use of your high-mind relating constructs and concepts to that envisioned order.:biggrin:

Quote:Not to be rude, but i don't think you could have your perspective without smoking lots of pot all the time. Or maybe just high when writing this. Is this true, just wondering? For insight not judgement so much.

Yes i smoke pot "all the time". what's your "vice"?
Now please explain how my perspective is my perspective only because i smoke pot all the time?

Quote:Its not grounded that is. Your logic is all over, and your obviously smarter then that.

Another funny statement.

"Logic" humans [all of 'em together]
make up as they go, the fact that you do not seem to recognize you are doing it
[adopting perspective, mending in perspective, creating "your" perspective, presenting no more than a perpective] is quite astounding to me.

Peace'