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horseonwheels · 11-08-2007, 11:08 AM

Quote:Look, ya'll can have a field day picking me and my attitude appart but AREN"T THERE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS GOING ON IN THE WORLD?

yes but the world doesnt insist that im a devil worshipper because i disagrees with it, nor is it paranoid anywher near the levels that you present.

Quote:Excuse me, I only come here with things I find. I have a personal belief system that works fine for me and 2 billion other Christians.

thats not true for several reasons. Number one, since when has the number of people into something proven its validity? The more people who belive the same thing, the better the chance that they are all wrong, look at democracy. The other is that included in those 2 billion is no agreemtn over their faith what so ever. " billion ranges from catholics to jonjestown type crackpot cults. So to talk about these 2 billion having a method that works is outright deceitfull, as you would be hard pressed to find just 1000 people in there who agrees excactly with eachother on what, whom and where Jesus is. All that is keeping these 2 billion together is the faith in Jesus, but thats it. No agreement to what Jesus is, was, so it is in fact NOT a working belief system, it is a belif system that lets you belive whatever you want to, as long as you know a few bible quotes to back up your pet theory faith and calls whatever you belive in, Jesus.

Quote:L*E*A*V*E****I*T******A*L*O*N*E.

remove it from the public entirely, remove the churches et all, then i will leave it alone, because then it no longer forces itself on me. As longas religion insist on being the truth, and i can prove that it is not even A truth, i will attack it because of the real cost it has to humanity. Wars, chaos and famine. So if you hippieparanoid variation of Jesus faith does not dictate or lead to those things, thats great, but that makes you a minority within those 2 billion.

Quote:But considering everything else Gnostics have to mess with, why am I ever surprised.

what is it that gnostics has to mess with?

some jump you made there, going from calling opposition satanists and what not, and now you preach love. Religion, especially christianity as we know it. If the christian are a majority everyone else will be subejct to their religious insanity through law and they will use brute force to apply it (history has tought this to us), but if they are a minorty and gets rough opposition to their BS, they want to talk about and preach love. what Bullshit!

~~SerialExpLain~~ · (This post was last modified: 11-09-2007 06:48 AM by SerialExpLain.)

Quote:So if you hippieparanoid variation of Jesus faith does not dictate or lead to those things, thats great, but that makes you a minority within those 2 billion.

QUOTE
But considering everything else Gnostics have to mess with, why am I ever surprised.

what is it that gnostics has to mess with?

some jump you made there, going from calling opposition satanists and what not, and now you preach love. Religion, especially christianity as we know it. If the christian are a majority everyone else will be subejct to their religious insanity through law and they will use brute force to apply it (history has tought this to us), but if they are a minorty and gets rough opposition to their BS, they want to talk about and preach love. what Bullshit!

Personally, I just think that whatever religion or spirituality a person has is just ducky until it becomes criminal. If there is any group advocating depopulating, fomenting wars, etc. then that just might be satanic and many gnostic groups are, by their own admission allied with forces antithetical to Christian beliefs. So, it is no small wonder that there has always been conflict due to the divergeant accounts put forth. There is open hostility always between orthodox Christianity and Gnosticism.

In response to your question on what gnostics have to mess with, there are diverse groups. It comes, I think, from a contempt for actually living in what they consider an inferior world because of belief in Demiurge-Archons. But, of course, there are many other angles to it. The wiki contains groups that I am sure one could fathom as potentially extremely deleterious to living in the world here on planet earth.
So, when Gnostics talk about Freedom....it makes Christians quite nervous that they are going to further the aims to immanentize the eschaton.

I just think they have their head in the clouds rather than in the moment here on earth. And if both polls of behavior are acceptable to their beliefs, well that could be viewed as problematic for those believing differently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

Oh, I don't start anything. But I do reserve my right as a person to believe as I do and not be a thought criminal for holding my personal view. The same for anyone else as long as they are not commiting crimes against humanity or advocating the abolition of other religions. Because that has nothing to do with individual spirituality, then it becomes a political agenda.

Maybe I am just a hippie in my perspective on when any group is not being "cool" and reasonable, that they are seeking to be problematic and that most conflicts are usually really unnessary.

triplesix · 11-09-2007, 01:15 PM

I don't understand Serial. This last post seems to have come from a completely different person. Gone are the crazed accusations of devil worship and earth sabotage. Here is a new, coherent Serial.

Are you feeling significantly passive today? Inert? Content? :eyebrow:

Just an observation.

horseonwheels · 11-09-2007, 02:02 PM

that was a great reply serial, thanks for that :smile:

So, with that out in the open, what i dont get is why you think i would be an agent, a gnostic, a devil worshipper and what else i have been tagged with just because i disagree with your religious views. Obviously you, yourself disagree wtih gnostics, and i cant help to wonder if you are not in fact doing the very thing against gnostics that you yourself would rather be free of?

You have to understand that when something/someone comes along and clims to be 'The Truth' it is going to be put under a lot of scrutiny. As i have stated before, i have no problem with peoples spirtual beliefs because those are househeld objects and not intended for broader adiences, where as its counterpart religion shall and must be attacked with whatever means possible.

I think that you at the core of it is a spiritual christian. You make up the rules as you go along, or you have a small groups of likeminds who agree on a set of morals. A religious christian is ready to burn you on a bonfire if you say any of the things i have said, where you just get insulted. And to be honest that is fair enough, i cant say that i wouldnt be if i was in your shoes. But im not, so there you go hehe;)

jack · 11-09-2007, 02:23 PM

horseonwheels Wrote:As i have stated before, i have no problem with peoples spirtual beliefs

This sounds like you do.

Quote:remove it from the public entirely, remove the churches et all, then i will leave it alone, because then it no longer forces itself on me. As longas religion insist on being the truth, and i can prove that it is not even A truth, i will attack it because of the real cost it has to humanity. Wars, chaos and famine. So if you hippieparanoid variation of Jesus faith does not dictate or lead to those things, thats great, but that makes you a minority within those 2 billion.

Quote:As longas religion insist on being the truth, and i can prove that it is not even A truth, i will attack it because of the real cost it has to humanity. Wars, chaos and famine

Religion, real cost to humanity = wars, chaos and famine

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
...
"That's a great deal to make one word mean," Alice said in a thoughtful tone.

"When I make a word do a lot of work like that," said Humpty Dumpty, "I always pay it extra."

jack · 11-09-2007, 02:52 PM

Quote:All that is keeping these 2 billion together is the faith in Jesus, but thats it.

That's all that's needed because that's all it's about

horseonwheels Wrote:remove it from the public entirely, remove the churches et all, then i will leave it alone, because then it no longer forces itself on me. As longas religion insist on being the truth, and i can prove that it is not even A truth, i will attack it because of the real cost it has to humanity. Wars, chaos and famine. So if you hippieparanoid variation of Jesus faith does not dictate or lead to those things, thats great, but that makes you a minority within those 2 billion.

lets see we have church/religion, but no mosque or synagogue. so I assume your speaking strictly about christians.

What war did Jesus start ?

you can prove that it is not even A truth.
That is indeed a very large statement. I think that you can debate it , but prove it, come now - are you sure you can do that ?

Where is a church that says - fight, disrupt, starve. I don't know where you live, but they don't have church like that here.
I don't even like church, very rarely enter one, and usually regret it when I do. Yet I've never heard any of these strategies taught at one, "How to" or "let us" create wars, chaos and famine.

Since when are today's churches forcing anything ?

Did a deacon run out in the street grab you and drag you inside ???
Did they tie you to a pew and tell you that they would rip out your heart if you didn't join ???
Did they prop open your eyes for hours in front of crucifix, while forcing you to listen to liturgy ???

They may have a voice but it isn't saying "hey, let's force ourselves on them," though it does say some questionable things.
Religion/church isn't responsible for wars, chaos and famine, it is the elite, the rulers, the hidden groups with agendas, TPTB.
They hijack peoples belief systems for their gain. Infiltration and subversion, works well for them. They could even infiltrate an anarchist group.

Quote:Religion, especially christianity as we know it. If the christian are a majority everyone else will be subejct to their religious insanity through law and they will use brute force to apply it (history has tought this to us), but if they are a minorty and gets rough opposition to their BS, they want to talk about and preach love. what Bullshit!

Now if your thinking of the crusades as the christian war history, here is my rebuttal
The crusades (the players - not lovers of Jesus but lovers of power) was not to convert anyone to christianity, it was for power.
Jesus is supposed to be the base belief of christians. He said to gain believers by love and deeds. There was nothing christian about the crusades, the participants or their actions, nor did they create a bunch of Jesus lovers through it.

The Causes of the Crusades By Burton E. Bennett / 1926
It has been stated that the purpose of the Crusades was to recover the sepulchre of Christ from the Infidel. The underlying causes, however, were deeper and far greater. They were:

1- the desire of the Papacy for conquest, (power not christ)
2- the desire of the mercantile classes to open up trade routes to the East,
3- the desire of the Byzantine emperors to recover their lost territories and
4- the desire of princes to carve new kingdoms out of the East.

"In 1066 the Norman Duke, William the Bastard, conquered England and established his kingdom of England. In 1090 the Norman Duke Roger conquered Sicily from the Moslems and established his kingdom there. The Norman Duke Godfrey was one of the commanders in the first Crusade. On July 15, 1099, Godfrey took Jerusalem, and while the shrieks of the dying were heard and the rivers of blood still gurgled and eddied, he founded his Norman kingdom of Jerusalem."

these were not followers of Jesus, and don't represent "church" any more than "WOGSS" represents "Anarchy."

Not all those who believe do so through "blind faith" or "fear of hell." Many have had real experiences that show truth of higher powers, with some type of control over things on this earth.

horseonwheels · 11-09-2007, 03:02 PM

Quote:
horseonwheels Wrote:As i have stated before, i have no problem with peoples spirtual beliefs
This sounds like you do.

The whole quote is "As i have stated before, i have no problem with peoples spirtual beliefs because those are househeld objects and not intended for broader adiences"

either you are not reading what im saying or you are being manipulative. It is very obvious from what i write that i make clear destinction between peoples person faith, and its political outlets known as religion. Other than that its annoying with its chiming bells on churches in the mornings, something i for sure did not ask for. The mosques howling at 4 in the morning similarly. I draw a very clear line between spritual beliefs and religion what is confusing you Jack?

jack · 11-09-2007, 03:13 PM

Quote:what is confusing you Jack?

Your words.

Annoying and forcing aren't the same.

horseonwheels · 11-09-2007, 03:28 PM

Quote:lets see we have church/religion, but no mosque or synagogue. so I assume your speaking strictly about christians.

why would you assume such a thing, is christianity the only religion?

Quote:What war did Jesus start ?

we are not talking about Jesus or whatever your particular cult or outview dictates about him to be true, we are talking about christianity. The self proclaimed faithfull followers of said guy, and what they do and did.

Quote:you can prove that it is not even A truth.
That is indeed a very large statement. I think that you can debate it , but prove it, come now - are you sure you can do that ?

absolutely i can. Christianity is but the continuation of former pagan rituals and held beliefs with a few added and a few removed bells and whistles. Even the christianity you can take right out of the Bible (the hardcore fire and brimstone crowd) is but a continuation of former ideas and pracsis. Our ancesters where not idiots, they where us, and as such there can be found a great many good living advices learned from their experiences in with all the superstition and nonsense. These are the advices, the parts that spiritually searching christians focus on, and thats a great thing, but it does not prove that it is 'The Truth' only that our forfathers where not complete tards, and when you look at the broader picture a book like the bible draws, and stop being selective of what information you like to read from it, it becomes obvious even without the use of external sources, that it is a hodegepodge of legend, storytelling, twisted history and chinese fortune cookie advices.

But the thing is, if you dont want to understand something, you dont want to understand it. you have stated flat out that you dont understand a lot of the stuff in the bible and find it disgusting, but in no way does that internal conflict of the book shake your faith in it. SO yes i can prove it, but im not sure i could prove it to you.

Quote:Where is a church that says - fight, disrupt, starve. I don't know where you live, but they don't have church like that here.

that is because you are very lucky to live where you live regardless of all the crap going on. We need to look only at contemporary history to find dirt within the churches. And when the church had political power, it fought like a beast. Give it political power and it will again fight like a beast, what do you think would have changed it is the same apperatus now as it was then.

Quote:I don't even like church, very rarely enter one, and usually regret it when I do. Yet I've never heard any of these strategies taught at one, "How to" or "let us" create wars, chaos and famine.

ok, a single example to humour you. pope, condoms, aids, africa. You find more yourself.

Quote:Since when are today's churches forcing anything ?

Did a deacon run out in the street grab you and drag you inside ???
Did they tie you to a pew and tell you that they would rip out your heart if you didn't join ???
Did they prop open your eyes for hours in front of crucifix, while forcing you to listen to liturgy ???

1.JV, Missionaries, Mormons etc.
2.no
3.look around you, i AM actually forced into your imaginary world through symblism all around me, i have to live under politics made up by people who belive what you belive and as such are motivated by it etc..

Quote:Religion/church isn't responsible for wars, chaos and famine, it is the elite, the rulers, the hidden groups with agendas, TPTB.

of which the church and medrassas at mecca are a big part.

Quote:They hijack peoples belief systems for their gain. Infiltration and subversion, works well for them. They could even infiltrate an anarchist group.

no they make them up, and put the stuff in there that people allready knows by heart so when they read the passages that they knew they say 'Hey its true, i know this to be true by heart, so the rest must be aswell', and then people forget that all the horror they then overlook still gets printed on your mind, anything we read is stored. The very term anarchy is the same thing, it covers over a true emotion, and true knowledge implanted in all living things, and then along comes some nut and takes patent on it, and throws in a few of his own stuff and sell it as a package.

This is why alites are elites because they understand this mechanism. If religion doesnt work, they create stars, they create holywood. all these things operate on the same mechanisms in our psyche.

Love Jesus, love Michael Jackson, no difference. The 13 y.o fan has as large as spirtual connection to MJ as you have with Jesus. Its a mechanism and its being hacked by these idiots with fairtyale stories of virgins giving birth and what now.

all people like you do is infringe on copyright. It is similar to fan art. They extend the original fictional universe through their passion for it.

Quote:Now if your thinking of the crusades as the christian war history, here is my rebuttal
The crusades (the players - not lovers of Jesus but lovers of power) was not to convert anyone to christianity, it was for power.

This is always the excuse, facts remain that they did, as it is being done today use scripture to back their deeds, and that it can be justirfied through the Bible no ifs or buts. Muslims use the same exuse right now, but there are none. It CAN be justified through these sciptures, it is there in black and white. If someone chose, or a lot of people rather, chose to completely overlook this, then thats good. HURRAEYKA!!! It means less fire and brimstone people, less racial, biggot, zealous violence,, but it does never negotiate the fact that it is in there and you have to overlook it on purpose not to see it. or force it to make a sense, when there is none to be found.

Quote:Jesus is supposed to be the base belief of christians. He said to gain believers by love and deeds. There was nothing christian about the crusades, the participants or their actions, nor did they create a bunch of Jesus lovers through it.

The bible states that it is God who are to be your focus. And God is not a very nice man in the Bible. modern christianity and the Bible does nots eem to have a whole lot in common. In any of the modern branches from the southern baptists to the hippies, that is.

horseonwheels · 11-09-2007, 03:29 PM

Quote:
Quote:what is confusing you Jack?

Your words.

Annoying and forcing aren't the same.

so you are saying that i am not forced to listen to the church bells? I should cover my ears?

LeveL · (This post was last modified: 11-09-2007 06:30 PM by LeveL.)

You know the only reason I don't post replies here is because horseonwheels is saying the exact stuff I would also say, and then some.

horseonwheels - you're trying to argue with a Christian remember! :LOL:

I have learned to just say "fuck it, whats the point" you cant tell them anything.

I understand your frustration though man. Shit, I used to believe in the whole Christian thing until I just snapped out of it, knowing I could open my mind a little bit more than I was doing. It takes effort to be a Christian in that you're continually having to contradict yourself and keep track of it all the time, if Christians just opened their minds for a change, all that would fade away. I look at what Christians do as a kind of "internal confusion" really, having to have faith in the Bible but at the same time in the back of their mind knowing there are enormous questions regarding the validity of the faith.

horseonwheels its completely right what you say about Church bells... I don't want to hear that shit at 9AM on a Sunday morning and yet I have to.

Even more important is how you say political leaders (E.G. Bush) are driven (at least in the public eye) by Christianity. Yes, we all know Bush isn't a Christian but my point is thats the bullshit that is put out by the Bush Administration... when you vote for a political candidate you're not voting for a fucking Christian you're supposed to be voting for a political candidate! If religion needs to be removed from anything then it has to be removed from politics. Religion in politics and politics in religion is a lethal combination, as history shows us.

~~SerialExpLain~~ · 11-09-2007, 06:37 PM

Quote:I don't understand Serial. This last post seems to have come from a completely different person. Gone are the crazed accusations of devil worship and earth sabotage. Here is a new, coherent Serial.

Are you feeling significantly passive today? Inert? Content?

Just an observation

I don't think I ever had a passive day in my life. Inert: Nope, not that...

Content: Yeah. :cool:

jack · 11-09-2007, 08:03 PM

Quote:You know the only reason I don't post replies here is because horseonwheels is saying the exact stuff I would also say, and then some.

horseonwheels - you're trying to argue with a Christian remember! :LOL:

I have learned to just say "fuck it, whats the point" you cant tell them anything.

I understand your frustration though man. Shit, I used to believe in the whole Christian thing until I just snapped out of it, knowing I could open my mind a little bit more than I was doing. It takes effort to be a Christian in that you're continually having to contradict yourself and keep track of it all the time, if Christians just opened their minds for a change, all that would fade away. I look at what Christians do as a kind of "internal confusion" really, having to have faith in the Bible but at the same time in the back of their mind knowing there are enormous questions regarding the validity of the faith.

horseonwheels its completely right what you say about Church bells... I don't want to hear that shit at 9AM on a Sunday morning and yet I have to.

Even more important is how you say political leaders (E.G. Bush) are driven (at least in the public eye) by Christianity. Yes, we all know Bush isn't a Christian but my point is thats the bullshit that is put out by the Bush Administration... when you vote for a political candidate you're not voting for a fucking Christian you're supposed to be voting for a political candidate! If religion needs to be removed from anything then it has to be removed from politics. Religion in politics and politics in religion is a lethal combination, as history shows us.

Am I a "christian member" ?
I don't like the way anyone who says Jesus gets lumped into a big group called 'christians'.
This is the point that I've been trying to make.
I defend him, and his teachings that are included in the bible, not religion, the bible or church.

Church bells,
Are they so disruptive that you can't ignore them and aren't they only once a week ???

There are no church bells ringing or mosques calling people to prayer, anywhere near me or in the city I live in.

I hear daily; cars, trucks, tractor trailers, emergency vehicles, planes, trains and lots of helicopters,

I've learned to ignore them, except for the dramatic increase of the helicopter traffic.
I always notice those choppers in my neighborhood and they disturb me.

horseonwheels · 11-09-2007, 08:20 PM

Quote:I defend him, and his teachings that are included in the bible, not religion, the bible or church.

But isnt the Bible and the Church the very place we know of him in the first place? If those are by large incorrect or can proven to be made up, then why would you take any of it for actual truth? Good advice is good advice altso when it comes from the Bible that is obvious, but good advice comes from a range of sources i ncluding my mother, and it makes none of them 'the truth' nor does it make any of them Jesus.

Do you understand that you use the very same argument as muslims and freemasons. That the local lodge is not the problem, when it is blatantly obvious that something in the core of their teachings keeps spawning outright evil allthough my freindly masonic neighbour is anything but evil.

churchbells are just a sign that its here and i dont find it likely they will go away, we keep temples from 3000 years back whenever we find them. The problem is its actual influence in politics in a democracy as far as i am concerned, which is why i DID label the church bells merely an annoyance. In politics it is a threat, a hostile entity that wants to superimpose its own version of reality upon me.

@Level - cheers mate, i appreciate it.

horseonwheels · (This post was last modified: 11-09-2007 08:33 PM by horseonwheels.)

I think this demonstrates what i mean much better than all this talking:

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8

that is beautiful.

"Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you." Ephesians 4:32

this aswell. in fact i know of a similar one from the Quran:

"who (the righteous) give to charity during the good times, as well as the bad times. They are suppressors of anger, and pardoners of the people. GOD loves the charitable." (3:134)

I mean youd have to be a special kind of cold not to appreciate prosa like this when you see it.

So ...what the fuck is this?

Quote:http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

When the whole document (both Quran and bible) claims to carry an infalible message within its pages. If all i have to go by when im to decipher garbage from pearls is my heart, then i have to confess, i allready knew all of it so ots not really gospel (good news). And my logic refuse to corporate with the rest of the message of cruelty, violence, incest and worse..