Deuteronomy 13:6-8

[triplesix]

Quote:6: If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7: Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8: Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10: And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

The call to kill believers of other religions.

Quote:11: And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

And this is the intended effect. A quelling of unrest and suppression of freedom of expression.

[hardboiled11]

It meant if they dont accept jesus or their god they should be killed becaues he is the only god! Their for he is declaring war on other religions duuuhhh

[hilly7]

Quote:

Quote:6: If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7: Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8: Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10: And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

The call to kill believers of other religions.

Quote:11: And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

And this is the intended effect. A quelling of unrest and suppression of freedom of expression.

This is just what a Sumerian friend of my said. The gods were Anankie (misspelled), children bore from the mating of angels to humans as well as the acutal Angels that done that. Inheirently evil, powerful and more advanced than humans were. People began to call them gods. They killed, raped and stole from humans. According to Jersey they were pretty much the NWO of yesterday.

[jack]

It's the Old Testament, OT is hard to stomach, NT basically cancels it out.

[Rosebery]

Quote:........................ OT is hard to stomach.........................

OMG don't let Starjade read that! :biggrin: :sadface:

[triplesix]

Quote:It's the Old Testament, OT is hard to stomach, NT basically cancels it out.

But what kind of comment is that?

Pick and choose your books from the Bible I suppose is the implied imposition.

It just goes from vengeful God in our living lives to a vengeful God in the after-life.

It's all a control mechanism applied over simple moralistic psychology.

[jack]

Quote:

Quote:It's the Old Testament, OT is hard to stomach, NT basically cancels it out.

But what kind of comment is that?

Pick and choose your books from the Bible I suppose is the implied imposition.

It just goes from vengeful God in our living lives to a vengeful God in the after-life.

It's all a control mechanism applied over simple moralistic psychology.

Whom is controlling me ?

You no nothing of myself or what I've seen or learned without man's hand or instruction.



I know the difference between God and Government, between Freedom and Religion.

Do you ?



No pick and chose, Jesus, your myth, has summed up the law - Love God & Love your neighbor.

Obeying the law is not a matter of obeying a complex tangle of rules, but it is a matter of the heart.



What vengeful god in the after life ?

That is the myth, the control mechanism, the over simple moralistic psychology.

[horseonwheels]

Jack i read that statement the same way, that one can just pick and chose from the bible as desired. Then it hardly qualifies as 'the truth', if you read the golden rule from it, and thats about all you take along from it, you could have read it in all the religious books out there, and a whole range of non religious ones aswell. What then makes the Bible special in any way?

And if i have to use the golden rule to read the bible, or rather, sort out the chaff from the wheat im not really left with a whole lot. The bible containes so much violence and bloodshed, that i fali to see how all that is justified by it having the golden rule in there along with it,.

[triplesix]

Quote:Whom is controlling me ?

You no nothing of myself or what I've seen or learned without man's hand or instruction.

No single entity is controlling you. Rather you've surrendered to a fear-based ideology so no one has to control you. Chances are you being religious or attending church is not significantly harming you. But I am sure it limits your acceptance of the behaviour of people who do not attend to the same rigid, and quite archaic, idea of morality and justice as described in the bible.

I doubt you consider other individual's rights to decide what they can and can not put into their bodies, or right to choose the gender of their sexual partner, or right to pay for consensual intercourse, or right to have intercourse for fun and not procreation (use contraceptive), or right to decide whether or not to terminate pregnancy, or right to decide whether or not to die when living "as a vegetable."

Your mind is much more likely to be closed to these possibilities due to religious morality and code of conduct that is many thousands of years old.

Quote:I know the difference between God and Government, between Freedom and Religion.

Do you ?

I think a child knows the difference between these things. The point is that when God and Government come together, you get a shitty government and when Freedom and Religion collide, you end up with some pretty shitty "freedom."

Religious scripture suspends the progress of mankind by encouraging people to adopt a progressively more and more reactionary mindset limited to somewhere within the mental capacities of the time it was written.

Quote:Obeying the law is not a matter of obeying a complex tangle of rules, but it is a matter of the heart.

If you could get that in latin it'd make a great headpiece for your Inquistional torture rack.

Quote:What vengeful god in the after life ?

Um.. supposedly the one that is going to damn me to Hell because I laughed at his crappy Jesus story my whole life.

I'd consider that pretty vengeful and he's not fucking with me now, but in the after life.

Isn't the reason I'm supposed to be a Christian is to avoid getting sent to Hell for eternity? Isn't that what being "saved" is all about? Because being a good person isn't good enough.

Quote:That is the myth, the control mechanism, the over simple moralistic psychology.

The myth, the control mechanism, the overly simple appeal to human psychology is Hell.

The single greatest lie ever told: there's a heaven and a hell.

[jack]

Quote:Jack i read that statement the same way, that one can just pick and chose from the bible as desired. Then it hardly qualifies as 'the truth', if you read the golden rule from it, and thats about all you take along from it, you could have read it in all the religious books out there, and a whole range of non religious ones aswell. What then makes the Bible special in any way?

And if i have to use the golden rule to read the bible, or rather, sort out the chaff from the wheat im not really left with a whole lot. The bible containes so much violence and bloodshed, that i fali to see how all that is justified by it having the golden rule in there along with it,.

Ok, you guys are right, that was a poor choice of words, so were the words in my 2nd reply,
I let let my emotions get me. I was feeling defensive, no fault of triplesix.



I too have seen all the violence and bloodshed in the book, it makes me question it as well.
Old testament is some scary shit, if I would have started reading the bible with the OT, I would have put it down. Still when I read the OT today, it's like - WTF !!!
I have no good explanation for the violence in it, it's mind boggling.


This is my opinion,
Jesus didn't tell anyone to write a bible, he said to spread his teachings to all the nations of the world, this is done by word of mouth and writing.

Like you guys are so fond of saying, the book is put together by man.
OT, is the same book as the Jewish Torah, Prophets, and Writings. I guess it was included as part of "the bible" as history and for the prophecies.
These prophecies taught of a coming messiah, aka Jesus. Note - he was and still is rejected by most Jews.

I take the book more symbolically than most "christians," i.e., OT "promised land" is not the literal real estate know as Israel but a symbol of "heaven" the "kingdom or God."

Followers of Jesus are not to do the heinous acts from the OT.
In my opinion it should not have been included together as one complete book. For it is two separate books, a jewish Torah and a book of Jesus.

The 4 gospels are Jesus and what he taught, and yes, he basically said - that was the old way, now is the new way.
The OT prophecies were fulfilled in him, it's over, yesterday's news, now/today, is a "new covenant."

Yes, most of these New Testament teachings like the golden rule can be found in many other places, however, Jesus as Messiah isn't usually in them. Jesus says that he is the "word made flesh" and that through him is the only door to salvation, that is what I defend, (I have my reasons) not the entire book as "the living god."
I never said that, that was someone else.

If any "christians" are using the OT as a current rule book (killing non-believers or building temples in jerusalem) they are not following Jesus and are hypocrites.
btw, I don't like the term Christians, I associate it with church and religion, too many christians are Churchians and are not followers of the christ that they claim.

[jack]

Wow triplesix, you must of never read any of my other posts, you have me all wrong. I've only looked at the beginning of that post so far and it's not me at all.

I will read the rest and try to correct your misassumptions of me

[jack]

Quote:No single entity is controlling you. Rather you've surrendered to a fear-based ideology so no one has to control you. Chances are you being religious or attending church is not significantly harming you. But I am sure it limits your acceptance of the behaviour of people who do not attend to the same rigid, and quite archaic, idea of morality and justice as described in the bible.

I doubt you consider other individual's rights to decide what they can and can not put into their bodies, or right to choose the gender of their sexual partner, or right to pay for consensual intercourse, or right to have intercourse for fun and not procreation (use contraceptive), or right to decide whether or not to terminate pregnancy, or right to decide whether or not to die when living "as a vegetable."

Your mind is much more likely to be closed to these possibilities due to religious morality and code of conduct that is many thousands of years old.

I have not surrendered to a fear-based ideology
People can make their own decisions, doesn't matter what I think.
I'm not religious and don't attend any church. I believe that most churches teach untruths and misconceptions.

Quote:I think a child knows the difference between these things. The point is that when God and Government come together, you get a shitty government and when Freedom and Religion collide, you end up with some pretty shitty "freedom."

Religious scripture suspends the progress of mankind by encouraging people to adopt a progressively more and more reactionary mindset limited to somewhere within the mental capacities of the time it was written.

This i agree with this, except for the term "religious scripture," for I do defend the words of Jesus, and they do not suspend the progress of mankind.
It's more like, - religious scripture is used by man to suspend the progress of mankind ....

Quote:If you could get that in latin it'd make a great headpiece for your Inquistional torture rack.

Hahaha, Sorry but, not into torture

Quote:What vengeful god in the after life ?

Quote:Um.. supposedly the one that is going to damn me to Hell because I laughed at his crappy Jesus story my whole life.

I'd consider that pretty vengeful and he's not fucking with me now, but in the after life.

Isn't the reason I'm supposed to be a Christian is to avoid getting sent to Hell for eternity? Isn't that what being "saved" is all about? Because being a good person isn't good enough.

Um, kind of, but different.
No one will burn in hell forever. Just one of the many false teachings of hypocrites. Jesus wishes no one to perish.
It's eternal punishment, not eternal punishing. The second death, gone forever, never to live again.


The words hell fire, are translated from the Greek word gehenna (valley of Hinnom), just outside of Jerusalem. In Jesus day this area was a garbage dump in which fires burned constantly, fueled by trash and the dead bodies of animals and criminals.

Jesus used this place as symbolic of the fate of unrepentant peolpe, you know. the ones that aren't sorry for their hurtful actions.
Burned remains of the bodies in the original gehenna (hell),the Valley of Hinnom, decomposed and were infested with maggots. The fire was not extinguished-it burned as long as there was trash to keep it burning
The bodies of animals and people thrown into gehenna, either decayed or burned up and, of course, were eventually completely consumed, gone forever.
No one will not be tormented forever, in my opinion.

Your right, people (not true followers) have used that myth (endless torment in hell) for many years as a fear based, control mechanism. I don't believe it.

[triplesix]

Quote:Your right, people (not true followers) have used that myth (endless torment in hell) for many years as a fear based, control mechanism. I don't believe it.

Why should the Bible be so open to interpretation if it is the word of God?

How are you sure you are a "true follower." Many Christians would probably disagree with you.

I think it is safe to say in general that Christianity contains the groundwork for manipulating people through the control mechanism, that is, the fear of Hell.

Hell has always been explained to me one way: eternal fire. Hence the word hellfire. This is the prevailing notion of Hell, I believe. This is the method of maintaining Christian belief.

If this doesn't apply to you, fantastic. I think you may have interpreted what I've been writing as more personal and directed at yourself. That is not the case. I am thinking of the religion as a whole entity, and considering the monstrosity for what it is in its entirety. Certainly there are some good Christians and individuals interested in "saving" people and all the like.

On the whole, I see a much different picture. Even including Jesus. People have made great attempts to portray Jesus as this ineffable benevolence while there are still passages within the Bible that reveal Jesus' character. These don't paint him as the universally loving flower child that many would hope.

Revelations 2:22 states that innocent children will be punished for sins of their adulterous parents. Granted this is Revelations, so many would like to take this book out of the Bible as well. So I won't quote from it in the future.

Matthew 15:22-28 seems to show Jesus reluctant to help a Canaanite, presumably because of her much hated ethnicity of the time. He even seems to refer to her and her people as dogs.
22: And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23: But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24: But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25: Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26: But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27: And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28: Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

In any event, I'm almost tired of reading the fucking Bible for these discussions. Everything I read is some deplorable and discombobulated bit of archaic nonsense. If this is supposed to be the framework for my morality I'd be a twisted fuck indeed. Rationalizing the Bible requires the most tiring mental gymnastics I've ever seen. I'm as sick of reading it now as I was a child.

How can you put 100% of your stock in such a thing?

[jack]

Quote:How are you sure you are a "true follower." Many Christians would probably disagree with you.

I'm pretty sure that they do. I really don't care what they of think of me.


If you think that I'm trying to convince you anything, your mistaken,

I was giving what I thought was an answer to the "kill" problem. You don't need to accept it, fine with me.



In that verse that you chose, to me, it's different. Ending - Jesus helped her.
She received what she desired from him, as soon as she showed faith. It's about showing some willingness to believe.


There is definitely a problem with people taking the book too literally, he did speak in parables after all.


Please try to remember that I am jack, not anyone else, particularly not anyone preaching religion and the infallibility of KJV

Quote:I think it is safe to say in general that Christianity contains the groundwork for manipulating people through the control mechanism, that is, the fear of Hell.

My feelings on religion our basically the same as yours. It's mostly trouble causing BS.

Quote:How can you put 100% of your stock in such a thing?

I question it

[triplesix]

Very well then.

I took the topic off on a tangent based on particular points within your post.

I'm not trying to convince anybody either way about anything.

Rather I thought I'd point out that it isn't just Islam that calls for killing nonbelievers, as many Christians would lead one to believe. That and to show that the Bible isn't all fluffy bunnies either. Though most people are willing to admit that.

I have a hard time reconciling the OT/NT discussion though in that no one has ever made any attempt to use the NT as a stand alone bible rejecting the OT outright. I think it is because they are mutually reinforcing. However, if that is to be the case, then the OT has to be taken into consideration with the NT.

If the message is that somehow God's attitude changed, from the time of the OT to the NT, and Jesus is our messenger to tell us that. Well that just seems to raise doubt as to the character of God.

In any event, I didn't mean to lump you in with the KJV folk or anyone else. I've started to jumble the last four or five threads into one in my head I guess. My apologies.

Cheers.