important disclaimer on my attitude towards muslim groups

[horseonwheels]

Its important that people understand than when im speaking about the "sunnis" or the "shias", im mainly reffering to the clergy of said cults, and not individual born into them.

because the truth of the matter is that most sunnis that i know, and i know and love quite a few of them in my own life, are altso very sceptical about hadith. They just stick to the prayer digged out of it, and a few bells and whistles. Most of not all of what these individuals do are in line with the Quran, and the few hadith they adhere to are no more than inspiration.

Inspiration can be both good and bad, but if its just showing you certain movements, how to put on your shoes etc. no harm is done, and it doesnt add anything to Islam as a whole. The problem is when nasty glergymen makes these inspirations into law. thats illegal and not in line with the Quran atleast.

As another poster here altso stated, the wast majority of members of either cult are illiterates. I dont belive we can hold people responsible for not knowing any better, when they are in fact unable to read for themself. But damn do i hold the clergy and leaders responsible. Why the illiteracy? Even according to sunni islam reading is one of the main commandments. They will even brag and tell us that the first word Mohammad ever had revealed was "read/write".

how can these people defend the current situation when they are defacto responsible? They have taken the position of local leaders (a position not put up by the Quran), so why are they not acting the part but just filling up people with drivel they themself have never fact checked? I mean they can read, but they still just parrot their fathers and their fathers traditions and refuse to do any thinking outside the norms set up by the fathers.

The vast majority of (cult)muslims that i have known, and know are good honest and kind people. And then there are the fundamental salafi wahabi nutters, who have their christian equallent in arbortion clinic bombing and doctor killing nutters, and they jewish counterpart in fundamentalists who hurt and mame people who disagree with them, even in enlightened sweden over offensive art.
(Oh yes, there was a jewish "mohammad drawings case" from sweden, but somehow we never heard much about it. )

I dont think religion is the real problem here, nor are any single religion or even the sum of them, because quite obviously the majority of people touched by it live happy productive lifes, and for those in a worse situation it is often the one thing preventing them from going apeshit, and then there are "the other guys".

but they are well present in the secular systems aswell, so perhaps the real problem just is certain peoples mindset, and whatever they touch will turn into horror for everyone else. some of these people can read childrens books and in all honesty believe they are meant for devilworship. with such a state of mind, all texts can be turned into whatever their mental problems dictates, and if such a person happen to be an influential Imam or Mullah , politician well.
Quite a few studies i have seen suggest that there are only about 10% of those people on earth, the psycopath, they are extremely hard to spot but looks excactly like the rest of us, and can mimic how we behave. But they are nothing like us. They dont feel the same things that we do, the things we define as "human" on pretty much a world scale give or take a little. However, they seem to be grossly overrepresentated in positions of power. and if the local position of power is clergy instead of parliament, thats where youre going to find them.

The difference between the eastern psycopaths and the western garden varaity one is that the west is so much more to blame. We can read, we just chose to ignore the obvious. The grand scale of victims in the east, have no such skill.

[triplesix]

Quote:I dont think religion is the real problem here, nor are any single religion or even the sum of them, because quite obviously the majority of people touched by it live happy productive lifes, and for those in a worse situation it is often the one thing preventing them from going apeshit, and then there are "the other guys".

Very true.

[shZ]

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and for those in a worse situation it is often the one thing preventing them from going apeshit,

Very true.

yeah, I agree too. It's a bit like what Marx said about opium being the religion of the masses - always misquoted that is... opium was legal at the time in britain and many poor people would use it as a pain killer and a kind of narcotic aid to relief - Marx included...that's what he meant about religion - that it acted as a solace and comforter to a lot of poor people.stuck in the grim landscape of bleak industrial towns

It can also make life rather difficult in a post modern culture where you realize you don't want to participate much socially anymore because there's so much superficiality and activity soley revolving around indulgunce in pleasure, which doesn't make you a weaker and more apathetic person. I'm not saying that some is weak or apathetic because they're not religious or are athiests by any means, but I'm refering to people collectively sinking to the lowest commoon dinominator, and being so obsessed with a (relavively) indulging lifestyle, looking for constant espcape and pleasure in it's most base forms, that they're in denial of some obvious in your face truths. Just take a look at the masses aka sheeple. I know a lot of people don't that term because they find it to be judgemental, and I'm not saying one should be highly judgmental. But not recognizing elementary truths and saying it like it is is pure dishonesty and very disingenuos, and a disserve to your intellect and intergrity.

[mastermg]

I have a question for shZ and Horseonwheels. Based on reading your posts, I have figured that you disagree with hadiths completely as this would be a sunni act (correct me if im wrong). However, shouldn't we believe in the hadiths as they may have truth in them, but at the same time not kill ourselves over them? I mean we could just read and learn from it but we shouldnt base our lives on it, am I correct?

[horseonwheels]

Quote:I have a question for shZ and Horseonwheels. Based on reading your posts, I have figured that you disagree with hadiths completely as this would be a sunni act (correct me if im wrong). However, shouldn't we believe in the hadiths as they may have truth in them, but at the same time not kill ourselves over them? I mean we could just read and learn from it but we shouldnt base our lives on it, am I correct?

I dont disagree with hadith because sunnis believe in them.
inspiration comes from many places, the books we read, the music we listen to, we are inspired by the bahaviour of others, and some are by hadith. I see no wrong in being inspired by hadith in ones life, my problem with it is that it has become established dogma and law, when quite obviously it shouldnt be. And its not even any spicific hadith that is law, that depends on what group you are with, even within the sunni branch itself.

If the hadith are meant to clarify the Quran, why are there no agrement among scholars which are the real "sahih" (true/genuine) hadith? Let me give you an example in how "clear" these scriptures are. Is music allowed in islam?

Quote:Music is Haraam

References within the context of the Holy Qur`aan along with the Hadith of the Prophet confirm that music is haraam.
Interpreters of the Qur`aan have defined the term `lahwal hadith` which is mentioned in the Qur`aan as:

1) Singing and listening to songs.
2) Purchasing of male and female singers.
3) Purchase of instruments of fun and amusement.

When Sayyidana Abdullah Ibne Mas`ood , a very close companion of our Prophet was asked about the meaning of the term `lahwal hadith`, he replied
“I swear by Him besides whom there is no other God,that it refers to ghinaa (singing ).”

This statement, he repeated three times. This view is unanimously supported by the four Khalifas, the eminent Sahabaah, Tabi`een, the four Imaams and other reliable Islaamic scholars and authorities.

One hadith from the Bukhari Shareef, the most authentic Book of Hadith, further confirms unlawfulness of music and singing :
`There will be people of my Ummah who will seek to make lawful; fornication, wine-drinking and the use of ma`aazif ( musical instruments ).`

Detailed analysis of the arabic word `ma`aazif ` shows that it refers to musical instruments, the sounds of those musical instruments and singing with the accompaniment of instruments.

Closer analysis of the wordings of the Hadith establishes the prohibition of music. Firstly, the words `seek to make lawful ` shows that music is not permissible, as logically one can only seek to make lawful that which is not allowed. Secondly, if music was not prohibited, then it would not have been brought within the same context as fornication and wine-drinking.

http://www.inter-islam.org/Prohibitions/Mansy_music.htm

Quote:Besides, this hadith does not clearly prohibit the use of musical instruments, for the phrase 'consider as lawful,' according to Ibn Al-`Arabi, has two distinct meanings:

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satelli...d=1119503544202

go to all the sunni scholar sites that you can find, and ask this question and you will be none the wiser. Notice however how most of them, if not all of them try to draw this supposed law out of hadith, only a few of them will toss in the odd Quran verse to back up some hadith they digged out. What does the Quran state about music? Nothing!

So these are the scriptures that are supposed to clarify the Quran? what did they make clear about the above exactly? The question was, is music allowed in islam, and the best the broad range of scholars can come up with is utter disagreement, and they dont even use the same hadiths to back up their point of view. So obviously, their point of view is just whatever cultural bias present. Western imams will find hadith that allows music, because its such an important part of culture here, and eastern imams will find hadith to support an anti music view because its not a large part of theirs.

Quote:yeah, I agree too. It's a bit like what Marx said about opium being the religion of the masses - always misquoted that is... opium was legal at the time in britain and many poor people would use it as a pain killer and a kind of narcotic aid to relief - Marx included...that's what he meant about religion - that it acted as a solace and comforter to a lot of poor people.stuck in the grim landscape of bleak industrial towns

cool, didnt know that. Thanks for clarifying this, as i have used that particular quote the wrong way myself.

[shZ]

Quote:I have a question for shZ and Horseonwheels. Based on reading your posts, I have figured that you disagree with hadiths completely as this would be a sunni act (correct me if im wrong). However, shouldn't we believe in the hadiths as they may have truth in them, but at the same time not kill ourselves over them? I mean we could just read and learn from it but we shouldnt base our lives on it, am I correct?

I don't reject them becuase "sunnis" are largely accepting of them, I reject them becuase there's so many ludicrous and absurd "hadith" contradicting the Quran all over the place. I actually lean more towards the Shia'a school of thought on a many issues, not because I'm Shia'a though. I consider myself Muslim, and that's about it, albiet, not exactly a very practicing one at the moment, which I'm not proud of or anything. My dad is Shia'a where as my mom is Sunni, not that eigther one of them highly identify with eigther sect, I certianly don't, as it's counterintuitive to being Muslim IMO. The reason I have some leaning towards Shia'a takes on some issues isn't because they're Shia'a, but becuase their scholars generally make a lot more sense than Sunnis and don't keep glossing over issues as consistantly or blatantly. But Shia'a have some pretty weird practices too, like the whole "matam" bit which is a little insane to say the least. Plus, when it comes to religion, I'd rather spend time reading the Quran, a much more productive activity as opposed to wasting my time sifting through a bunch of fabricated hearsay like "hadith."

EDIT: I suppose some of them could actually be authetic to some degree or at least contain kernels of wisdom, but that's like trying to find a needle in a haystack.

[mastermg]

Ok I understand now, thanks.