BBC 10 years of 9/11 conspiracy theories

[drummer]

29 August 2011 Last updated at 03:25

It may be 10 years since the attacks in the US on 11 September, but conspiracy theories have not faded over time, says Mike Rudin.

Numerous official reports have been published since the Twin Towers fell, but just when a piece of evidence casts doubt on one theory, the focus then shifts to the next "unanswered question".

Here are five of the most prominent 9/11 conspiracy theories circulating in online communities.

1. Failure to intercept the hijacked planes

The question: Why did the world's most powerful air force fail to intercept any of the four hijacked planes?

Conspiracy theorists say: The then US Vice President Dick Cheney ordered the military to stand down and not to intercept the planes.

Official reports say: This was a highly unusual multiple hijacking with violence on board, and where the transponder, which provides the exact location of the plane, was turned off or changed.

What is more, a routine military training exercise happened to be taking place that day at US air defence command.

Air traffic controller Colin Scoggins was in constant contact with the military and did not see any lack of response. There was confusion and a lack of communication between the civilian air traffic control (FAA) and the military.

The military's equipment was also outdated and designed to look out over the ocean to deal with a Cold War threat.

2. Collapse of the Twin Towers

The question: Why did the Twin Towers collapse so quickly, within their own footprint, after fires on a few floors that lasted only for an hour or two?

Conspiracy theorists say: The Twin Towers were destroyed by controlled demolitions. Theories relate to the rapid collapse (about 10 seconds), the relatively short-lived fires (56 minutes in World Trade Center 2 or 102 minutes in World Trade Center 1), reports of the sounds of explosions shortly before the collapse, and the violent ejections that could be seen at some windows many floors below the collapse.

Official reports say: An extensive inquiry by the National Institute of Standards and Technology concluded that the planes severed and damaged support columns and dislodged fire-proofing.

Around 10,000 gallons of jet fuel were spewed over many floors starting widespread fires. Temperatures of up to 1,000C caused the floors to sag and the perimeter columns to bend, causing the sounds of "explosions".

The massive weight of the floors dropped, creating a dynamic load far in excess of what the columns were designed for. Debris was forced out of the windows as the floors above collapsed.

Controlled demolition is always carried out from the bottom floors up, yet this collapse started at the top.

No evidence has ever been found of explosive charges despite the extensive hand searches and there is no evidence of any pre-cutting of columns or walls, which is routinely carried out in a controlled demolition.

3. Attack on the Pentagon

The question: How could an amateur pilot fly a commercial plane in a complicated manoeuvre and crash it into the headquarters of the world's most powerful military, 78 minutes after the first report of a possible hijack and leave no trace?

Conspiracy theorists say: A commercial Boeing 757 did not hit the building but instead a missile, a small aircraft or an unmanned drone was used. But since evidence has increasingly shown that the American Airlines Flight 77 did hit the building, the emphasis has shifted to questioning the difficult approach manoeuvre. It is argued it was not under the control of al-Qaeda but the Pentagon itself.

Official reports say: Airplane wreckage, including the black boxes, were recovered from the scene and they were catalogued by the FBI.

Although some early video did not show much wreckage, there is a good deal of video and still photography which shows plane wreckage and evidence of the flight path, such as broken lamp posts.

The remains of crew and passengers on the plane were found and positively identified by DNA. Witnesses also saw the plane strike the Pentagon.

4. The fourth plane - United Airlines flight 93

The question: Why was the crash site at Shanksville, Pennsylvania, so small and why was the aircraft debris not visible?

Conspiracy theorists argue: United Airlines flight 93 was shot down by a missile and disintegrated in mid air, scattering the wreckage over a large area.

Official reports say: There are clear photographs showing aircraft wreckage and the cockpit voice recorder, which showed there had been a passenger revolt and the hijackers had deliberately crashed the plane.

Initial theories that heavy debris was scattered many miles from the main crash site turned out to be false. In fact the wind had blown light debris such as paper and insulation just over a mile.

Another theory was based on a misquote from the local coroner, Wally Miller, who said he stopped being a coroner after about 20 minutes because there were no bodies. What he also said was that he quickly realised it was a plane crash and there would have to be a large funeral service for the many victims.

In addition, the military never gave orders to the air force to shoot the commercial airliner down.

5. Collapse of World Trade Center Building 7

The question: How could a skyscraper, which was not hit by a plane, collapse so quickly and symmetrically, when no other steel-framed skyscraper has collapsed because of fire?

Initially the focus was on the phrase "pull it" used by the owner, Larry Silverstein, in a TV interview. But in fact he was talking about pulling firefighters back. (Demolition experts do not use the term "pull it" as slang for setting off explosives.)

Now the focus has shifted to the speed of the collapse which reached near free fall for 2.25 seconds. It is argued only explosives could make it collapse so quickly and symmetrically.

Some scientists, who are sceptical of the official account, have examined four dust samples from Ground Zero and claim to have found thermitic material which reacts violently when heated up. They claim tonnes of thermite and conventional explosives were rigged inside, not just WTC7, but also the Twin Towers.

Official reports say: A three-year investigation by the National Institute of Standards and Technology concluded that the building collapsed because of uncontrolled fires, started by the collapse of the nearby North Tower, and which burnt for seven hours.

The mains water feeding the emergency sprinkler system was severed. No evidence has ever been found of explosive charges and there are no recordings of a series of very loud explosions that would have been expected with controlled demolition.

Furthermore, there is an alternative explanation for the "thermitic material" the sceptical scientists found in the dust - it is just a type of primer paint. It's calculated 1,200,000 tonnes of building materials were pulverised at the World Trade Center and most minerals are present in the dust (not necessarily in a large quantity). More extensive sampling of the dust has not found any evidence of thermite or explosives, says a report from the US Geological Survey and another from RJ Lee.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14665953

[JazzRoc]

Here are a few clarifications to that of which I'm aware.

(08-29-2011 04:43 PM)drummer Wrote:  1. Failure to intercept the hijacked planes

An acquaintance of mine says: "Outside the actual reports, which is where the metal meets the meat, the existence of, and treatment of, whistleblowers to specific issues, is not just telling, it's damning.
LtC. Schaffer and Able Danger leap readily to mind. They HAD three of the four cells, and were DYING to go operative against them.
The specific warnings from SO VERY MANY sources, credible professional sources, that were thwarted and gagged-n-bagged, COULD be attributed to a reluctance on the part of Bush administrators to go anywhere near Saudi royal money, but that is by no means a satisfying nor comprehensive catch-all."
He also says it's LIHOP (Let It Happen On Purpose) operation - rather like Pearl Harbor, where their newly-installed radar was PERFECTLY FUNCTIONAL and several analysts predicted a possible ideal strike time and date, a significant proportion of the Imperial Japanese Navy had been off-base, whereabouts unknown for a considerable time, and all US Navy aircraft carriers were off-base simultaneously at the precise time of attack. Whew, what a stroke of luck...
I believe it's a LIHOP too.

Quote:2. Collapse of the Twin Towers
Theories relate to the rapid collapse (about 10 seconds)

By some ingenious linking of video footage better accuracy has been attained, 14 sec and 22 sec respectively, taking account of the more deadly lower-down impact on WTC2 bringing about a greater rate of collapse than than the higher-up impact on WTC2.
The downward acceleration of all three buildings works out around 2/3 G, unsurprisingly if you're an engineer. Possibly more surprising if you're not.

Quote:the violent ejections that could be seen at some windows many floors below the collapse

These were failures brought about by the falling upper part acting as a PISTON upon the air within the building.

Quote:Temperatures of up to 1,000C caused floors to sag and perimeter columns to bend

Also caused the core columns to slump by heat-induced CREEP, transferring a proportion of the load they normally handled to the external columns, courtesy of the TOP HAT TRUSS across the tower top. By itself this wouldn't cause collapse, as the overloaded columns were still stabilized by their floor attachments.

Quote:causing the sounds of "explosions"

The concrete cast into the floors exploded when its temperature exceeded 750 deg C.

After several floor-to-column connections failed due to the sagging of floors, snapping them, groups of both internal and external columns were rendered unstable and failed by BUCKLING.
Buckling begins silently, quickly accelerating to freefall. The column bows sideways, forms a "knee", which snaps, the two parts of the "legs" zip outwards.

Quote:The massive weight of the

TOWER TOP

Quote:dropped, creating an

OFFSET SET OF

Quote:dynamic loads far in excess of what the

STRUCTURE WAS

Quote:designed for.

SNAPPED COLUMN FRAGMENTS AND

Quote:debris were forced out of the

TOWER as each floor collapsed in succession.

Quote:4. The fourth plane - United Airlines flight 93
In fact the wind had blown light debris such as paper and insulation just over a mile.

Light material survives high-speed impacts quite well. There is a specific physical equation for this which I haven't been able to rediscover. This validates the passport discovered at the WTC too.

Quote:5. Collapse of World Trade Center Building 7
Now the focus has shifted to the speed of the collapse which reached near free fall for 2.25 seconds.

Buckling collapse involves a silent transition to freefall.
The overall time for collapse, which had started at least seven seconds before the observed face began to move, was more like 12-14 sec.

[icosaface]

Here is my take on their take.

Quote:The question: Why did the world's most powerful air force fail to intercept any of the four hijacked planes?

Conspiracy theorists say: The then US Vice President Dick Cheney ordered the military to stand down and not to intercept the planes.

Cheney was in the Pentagon on the morning of Sept 1, 2001 and the following is the gist of a conversation he had with a young officer. The officer told Cheney that the plane was x minutes away. He then asked Cheney "Do the orders still stand"? Cheney replied "Yes, have you heard anything different?"


This is taken to mean, (considering that the Pentagon is in the most heavily defended air space in the world and no attempt of any kind was made to stop the plane), that the alleged plane that hit the Pentagon was allowed to do so.

Quote:Official reports say: This was a highly unusual multiple hijacking with violence on board, and where the transponder, which provides the exact location of the plane, was turned off or changed.

What is more, a routine military training exercise happened to be taking place that day at US air defence command.

They (NORAD) don't need transponders to track planes, they intercepted 70 some planes earlier that year lickety split no problemo. If the alleged plane that hit the Pentagon had flown straight at it, the alleged hijackers would not have had to execute a 270 degree high speed bank turn so that they could hit the Pentagon offices that had the auditors that were looking for the missing $2.3 trillion that Rumfeld announced, on TV the day before, was unaccounted for in the armed services budget.






What is more, speaking sarcastically now, there were at least 5 secret war games going on that day. Condoleezza Rice said that no war games were going on but then she also said that no one that she knew could have imagined that planes would be used as missiles.

The armed services had an exercise which involved a plane missile attacking a government facility prior to 911. Also a new TV show's , "The Lone Gunman", first episode which was to air months before Sept 11, 2001 had as a plot a hijacked passenger plane being flown under remote control to hit one of the WTC towers and the operation was done by rogue members of the US government.

Quote:Official reports say: An extensive inquiry by the National Institute of Standards and Technology concluded that the planes severed and damaged support columns and dislodged fire-proofing.

Around 10,000 gallons of jet fuel were spewed over many floors starting widespread fires. Temperatures of up to 1,000C caused the floors to sag and the perimeter columns to bend, causing the sounds of "explosions".

The massive weight of the floors dropped, creating a dynamic load far in excess of what the columns were designed for. Debris was forced out of the windows as the floors above collapsed.

Controlled demolition is always carried out from the bottom floors up, yet this collapse started at the top.

No evidence has ever been found of explosive charges despite the extensive hand searches and there is no evidence of any pre-cutting of columns or walls, which is routinely carried out in a controlled demolition.

Chief Palmer's Radio Call

The Report conceals one of the most vivid accounts of heroism in responding to the attack. Battalion Chief Orio J. Palmer had reached the 78th floor of the South Tower by 9:48 -- 11 minutes before the explosive collapse began -- and reported via radio "two isolated pockets of fire." In contrast to Palmer's communication, NIST's Report implies that no firefighters were able to reach the crash zones.

Here's a transcript of a portion of the radio communication with Chief Palmer:

Battalion 7 Chief: Battalion Seven ... Ladder 15, we've got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines. Radio that, 78th floor numerous 10-40 Code Ones.
...
Ladder 15: Floor 78?

Battalion 7 Chief: Ten-four, numerous civilians, we gonna need two engines up here.
...
Battalion 7 Chief: I'm going to need two of your firefighters Adam, stairway to knock down two fires. We have house line stretched we could use some water on it, knock it down, kay.

However firemen reported that weeks later they were finding molten steel in the WTC sub basements. Steel in liquid form weeks after Sept 11, 2001.

Conventional demolitions are carried out from the bottom up and this was the case for building 7 which was pulled at 5:30 on Sept 11, 2001.
The towers were 110 stories tall and if airplanes were going to be used as a cause for them collapsing then the collapse would have to start from somewhere near the plane crash site because everybody in New York and the rest of the world was going to be watching.
The towers were a symetrical collapse demolition, probably the first time ever done. Things went awry when the top 20 some floors of the South tower tipped 23 degrees but they managed to succesfully ignore any questions as to how you could have a symetrical pancake collapse scenario when all the weight supposed crush mechanism is on one side of the building.
The towers had asbestos in them and the asbestos was going to have to be removed by 2010, the price tag for this was estimated in the billions of dollars. Three months or so prior to 911, Larry Silverstein signs lease papers on the WTC, then he takes out a multi billion dollar insurance policy against terrorist attacks on the WTC and his corporation was the beneficiary of the policy and not the owners of the building (the Port Authority). Although the White House knew that the air quality around ground zero in New York was toxic they ordered the EPA to issue a statement saying that the air was safe to breathe exposing rescue workers and others to debillitating diseases.

Many credible eyewitnesses reported explosions and at least one reported explosions in the North tower in the sub basements before the plane hit the building.



The towers turned to powder as they fell so there was no crush mechanism available to be used as a cause for the collapse theory. No signs of a demolition having taken place were found because the investigators (ASCE) never looked for any signs of demolition and they were only allowed to examine a few pieces of the wreckage, they were not allowed the freedom to roam the site or to do "extensive hand searches", they weren't even allowed blueprints of the towers.

Quote:The question: How could an amateur pilot fly a commercial plane in a complicated manoeuvre and crash it into the headquarters of the world's most powerful military, 78 minutes after the first report of a possible hijack and leave no trace?

Conspiracy theorists say: A commercial Boeing 757 did not hit the building but instead a missile, a small aircraft or an unmanned drone was used. But since evidence has increasingly shown that the American Airlines Flight 77 did hit the building, the emphasis has shifted to questioning the difficult approach manoeuvre. It is argued it was not under the control of al-Qaeda but the Pentagon itself.

Official reports say: Airplane wreckage, including the black boxes, were recovered from the scene and they were catalogued by the FBI.

Although some early video did not show much wreckage, there is a good deal of video and still photography which shows plane wreckage and evidence of the flight path, such as broken lamp posts.

The remains of crew and passengers on the plane were found and positively identified by DNA. Witnesses also saw the plane strike the Pentagon.

OK, so where did they get the DNA of the passengers and crew to check against the DNA they found in the Pentagon after the fire that was so hot that it vaporized the airplane frame, engines etc.

Where are the plane parts with the tracking numbers on them? How did a plane that big get into a hole that small and cause so little damage to the interior. Why are there photos of offices and their unburned contents in the collapse area where the intense fire took place?

Why don't they release the video tapes that they immediately confiscated from the security cameras at the Pentagon and surrounding areas to the public?

Quote:he question: Why was the crash site at Shanksville, Pennsylvania, so small and why was the aircraft debris not visible?

Conspiracy theorists argue: United Airlines flight 93 was shot down by a missile and disintegrated in mid air, scattering the wreckage over a large area.

Official reports say: There are clear photographs showing aircraft wreckage and the cockpit voice recorder, which showed there had been a passenger revolt and the hijackers had deliberately crashed the plane.

Initial theories that heavy debris was scattered many miles from the main crash site turned out to be false. In fact the wind had blown light debris such as paper and insulation just over a mile.

Another theory was based on a misquote from the local coroner, Wally Miller, who said he stopped being a coroner after about 20 minutes because there were no bodies. What he also said was that he quickly realised it was a plane crash and there would have to be a large funeral service for the many victims.

In addition, the military never gave orders to the air force to shoot the commercial airliner down.

Where are the "clear photographs showing aircraft wreckage"? Where are the plane parts with the tracking numbers on them? So the coroner stopped being a coroner because there were no bodies present but then quickly recognized that there were going to be a lot of funerals. Really?

So did the air force give orders not to shoot the passenger airliner down?

Quote:The question: How could a skyscraper, which was not hit by a plane, collapse so quickly and symmetrically, when no other steel-framed skyscraper has collapsed because of fire?

Initially the focus was on the phrase "pull it" used by the owner, Larry Silverstein, in a TV interview. But in fact he was talking about pulling firefighters back. (Demolition experts do not use the term "pull it" as slang for setting off explosives.)

Now the focus has shifted to the speed of the collapse which reached near free fall for 2.25 seconds. It is argued only explosives could make it collapse so quickly and symmetrically.

Some scientists, who are sceptical of the official account, have examined four dust samples from Ground Zero and claim to have found thermitic material which reacts violently when heated up. They claim tonnes of thermite and conventional explosives were rigged inside, not just WTC7, but also the Twin Towers.

Official reports say: A three-year investigation by the National Institute of Standards and Technology concluded that the building collapsed because of uncontrolled fires, started by the collapse of the nearby North Tower, and which burnt for seven hours.

The mains water feeding the emergency sprinkler system was severed. No evidence has ever been found of explosive charges and there are no recordings of a series of very loud explosions that would have been expected with controlled demolition.

Furthermore, there is an alternative explanation for the "thermitic material" the sceptical scientists found in the dust - it is just a type of primer paint. It's calculated 1,200,000 tonnes of building materials were pulverised at the World Trade Center and most minerals are present in the dust (not necessarily in a large quantity). More extensive sampling of the dust has not found any evidence of thermite or explosives, says a report from the US Geological Survey and another from RJ Lee.

The fire fighters were out of building 7 many hours before it collapsed. Barry Jennings was inside building 7 and he said explosions were going off.


So when Silverstein said they had made a decision to pull it he was talking about pulling the building down and not talking about pulling the firemen out of the building.



Also building 7 had the case files for 3 to 4 hundred SEC Enron fraud cases against major corporations stored in their offices there.

Also the armed forces accounting records were stored there, good luck trying to find the missing $2.3 billion.

I see jr has just made a post so I will post this and then read what he has to say.

[JazzRoc]

(08-30-2011 02:00 AM)icosaface Wrote:  "Do the orders still stand"? Cheney replied "Yes, have you heard anything different?" - This is taken to mean that the alleged plane that hit the Pentagon was allowed to do so.

But they still could be some order of which the listener was unaware.

Quote:NORAD don't need transponders to track planes

But first they need to be notified.
Then they have to mobilize to the area (seeing most of them were elsewhere).
Then they have to sort from hundreds, possibly thousands, of radar targets.

Quote:Also a new TV show, "The Lone Gunman", first episode of which was to air months before Sept 11, 2001 had as a plot a hijacked passenger plane being flown under remote control to hit one of the WTC towers and the operation was done by rogue members of the US government.

Someone has told me the world ends next year. I know there's a film out, but I haven't seen it yet. Great effects, apparently. But I remember a film called "FIVE" and another "On the Beach", and we're still alive right now. Strange.

Oh, by the way, an error does not become truth by reason of multiple propagation.

Quote:Chief Palmer's Radio Call - "two isolated pockets of fire."

Unfortunately he had just reached the fire from BENEATH.
I don't suppose he climbed ABOVE the fire to make that report, do you?

Quote:However firemen reported that weeks later they were finding molten steel in the WTC sub basements. Steel in liquid form weeks after Sept 11, 2001.

Hot materials retain their heat for a long time when packed with insulation.
Didn't you know this? It's a fact.

Quote:Conventional demolitions are carried out from the bottom up and this was the case for building 7 which was pulled at 5:30 on Sept 11, 2001.

And the reason for this assertion is?

"Pull" is the stock firefighters' word for withdraw. You're pulling our legs again.

Quote:The towers were 110 stories tall and if airplanes were going to be used as a cause for them collapsing then the collapse would have to start from somewhere near the plane crash site because everybody in New York and the rest of the world was going to be watching.

NO! REALLY! GOSH!

Quote:they managed to successfully ignore any questions as to how you could have a symmetrical pancake collapse scenario when all the weight supposed crush mechanism is on one side of the building.

You SO fail to understand how ANY of the buildings fell. Why don't you read and re-read the NIST Report until something penetrates?

The impact damage to the towers caused them to sag and lean in the direction of the impact origin, partially unloading the columns furthest from the impact, and loading up the columns straddling the impact holes.
The progressing fires sought and found the opened core for a chimney. The core columns, under compression from their load, but then HEATED by the fires, shortened and fattened by THERMAL CREEP, and handed some of their loads over to the external columns via the TOP HAT TRUSS, loading the heaviest loaded columns even more.
They held because of their load factors.
But LONG columns need to be laterally-stabilized, and in the meanwhile the rather delicate trussed floors had dramatically distorted, snapping their fixings to the external (and possibly the internal) columns, removing sufficient lateral stability from the vertical columns for a group of them on one face and floor to BUCKLE.





Then there was no way back, for buckling leads to freefall silently and pretty quickly too, and then the OFF-CENTER IMPACT from a twelve-foot tower-top freefall clinched it, of course.
The collapse was closely-observed by video. We've all seen it. You can SEE it buckle.
You can also SEE that it had to lean to collapse that first floor on one side only, which DIRECTLY contradicts what you say.
The REASON why the tower "came back" was that each floor was "threaded" by 50-odd core columns, which hadn't yet all "given up the ghost" laterally, as they had a large progression of floor-to-column shearing events happening vertically.

Quote:asbestos - estimated in the billions of dollars - multi billion dollar insurance policy - air quality around ground zero in New York was toxic - debilitating diseases

Horse manure.

Quote:eyewitnesses reported explosions

I've heard that fires often cause these. People will use concrete, fit tanks with liquids in them, do all sorts of stupid things, willy-nilly.

Quote:and at least one

That was lucky. There could have been just a half, eh?

Quote:reported explosions in the North tower in the sub basements before the plane hit the building

I see. There was an explosion, then the plane hit the building.
OR
The plane hit the building, THEN there was another explosion.
If he was in the basement, how did he know WHAT happened, other than BANGS going off?
I put it to you that as we KNOW what happened and when from video - no-planers notwithstanding - the order for anyone in the basement would be a BANG as the frame of the tower was struck by the aircraft. This would reach him 0.048 seconds after the impact 800 feet above him.
Allowing 1/4 of a second for the kerosine/air explosion to form as the plane crossed its intersected floors, and about 3/4 of a second for the vertical journey down the central core-space, and the kerosine explosion would have reached the basement about a second AFTER the impact explosion.

Quote:The towers turned to powder as the

FLOORS crushed each other at higher and higher impact speeds, until the main collapsed mass of ALL the floors hit ground zero at 120 miles per hour. A crushing blow in itself...

Quote:(WTC 7) - never looked for any signs of demolition

Hmmm. The building was hit by parts of the top of WTC1 doing nearly 200 mph, made of steel, weighing 70 tons each, which penetrated 13 floors, starting numerous fires on their way down. These fires then burnt free and roamed for seven hours without setting any charges off.
THEN they set the charges off. I see. Again.

Quote:Witnesses also saw the plane strike the Pentagon - where did they get the DNA of the passengers and crew to check against the DNA they found?

Kin? Their clothing?

Quote:the fire that was so hot that it vaporized the airplane frame, engines etc.

Most of the aircraft was disintegrated by the impact. Note the word MOST. Note how it implies REMNANTS. Remnants are all that is needed. Remnants of the engines were identified as Rolls-Royce RB211-535 fragments, as fitted ONLY to the Boeing 757.

Quote:Where are the plane parts with the tracking numbers on them?

LOL. You've got to learn to see things from the viewpoint of others. "They" knew what hit the Pentagon. Why should they itemize part numbers after the event, if they knew what happened?
It was probably the bodies/body parts of people other than those known to be within the building which tipped them off about it not being a missile. Or the huge kerosine explosion. Or the FIVE downed lampposts. Or yadda, yadda, yadda.

Quote:How did a plane that big get into a hole that small

Quote:and cause so little damage to the interior.

Quote:Why are there photos of offices and their unburned contents in the collapse area where the intense fire took place?

Yellow ellipses represent Pentagon personnel victims, blue ellipses/circles represent passenger/crew bodies/body parts.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>This seems a useful site.

Quote:Why don't they release the video tapes that they immediately confiscated from the security cameras at the Pentagon and surrounding areas to the public?

My theory is they didn't want people like you to develop any more Texas Sharpshooter Fallacies.

Quote:(Shanksville) - Where are the "clear photographs showing aircraft wreckage"? Where are the plane parts with the tracking numbers on them?

95% of the plane is stored in a hangar at the nearest airfield, I believe.

Quote:So the coroner stopped being a coroner because there were no bodies present but then quickly recognized that there were going to be a lot of funerals. Really?

Yes, REALLY. He probably used his NOSE*. He was probably already using his brain...

Oh. By the way, an error does not become truth by reason of multiple propagation.

* Do I really have to explain why?

[drummer]

Putting aside all the other events and explanation's of that day (911),
building 7 is still a compelling case for controlled demolition.

[JazzRoc]

(08-30-2011 10:36 PM)drummer Wrote:  building 7 is still a compelling case for controlled demolition.

Read my last post.
No, it isn't a compelling case at all.

Unless you can explain the demolition method which lays the rear face of WTC 7 (that's the one in the video) neatly OVER its rubble.



What you can't see in the video is that the building is falling backwards away from you, and you can only see the top 26 floors (of 44 floors) in the frame...

Don't say "verinage by fire"...

Oh. By the way, an error does not become truth by reason of multiple propagation.

[icosaface]

jr said Speaking about NYFD Battalian Chief Orio Palmer

Quote:Unfortunately he had just reached the fire from BENEATH.
I don't suppose he climbed ABOVE the fire to make that report, do you?

How would you know what he did? I think he was a competent man and I think he investigated the situation thoroughly before he called for help, that way he would know what to ask for.

jr said

Quote:Hot materials retain their heat for a long time when packed with insulation.
Didn't you know this? It's a fact.

Having trouble being specific eh?

jr said

Quote:"Pull" is the stock firefighters' word for withdraw. You're pulling our legs again.

You've been pulling something between your legs for far too long.

jr said

Quote:You SO fail to understand how ANY of the buildings fell.

2 Explosions, 1 Implosion


The South Tower
WTC Building 2
9:59 AM EDT


The North Tower
WTC Building 1
10:28 AM EDT


WTC Building 7
5:20 PM EDT

The Towers Had Robust Self-Supporting Core Structures

47 box columns a yard wide, steel 4" thick at base
Abundantly cross-braced
Capable of supporting the entire weight of building
Anchored directly to bedrock
Did not depend on floor diaphragms for support

The towers were designed to withstand 140 MPH winds.
In such cases the floor diaphragms would help transfer lateral loads loads between perimeter walls and core. Otherwise, structural function of the floors was not in play.








Explosive Ejections of Dust and Pieces

Thick dust clouds spewed from towers in all directions, at around 50 feet/second.
Solid objects were thrown ahead of the dust -- a feature of explosive demolition.
The steel was thoroughly cleansed of its spray-on insulation.
Some pieces of the perimeter wall were thrown laterally 500 feet.
Aluminum cladding was blown 500 feet in all directions.
Blast waves broke hundreds of windows in buildings over 400 feet away.







The Flexible Official Story
Is your building designed to explode?

All acceptable discourse on the tower collapses must avoid words like explosion and demolition.
The official story consists of layers of ever-more-absurd fall-back stories.
Twin Towers
Structural damage and fire stress caused collapses
mostly structural damage -or- mostly fire stress -- mix 'n match as required
Faulty construction contributed
cheap pre-fab construction
Designed to fall vertically
Rigged with explosives when built
Building 7
What Building? ... collapse wasn't newsworthy
Collapse contagion -- damage due to proximity to towers
Diesel fuel burning caused collapse
FEMA: the total diesel fuel on the premises contained massive potential energy




The Towers Were Shredded and Pulverized

Ground Zero: site of collapse or bombing?

FEMA's "Investigation"

The total collapses of the Twin Towers and Building 7 were (based on the official story) the 3 largest engineering failures in the history of the world.

FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) made sure there was no real investigation.

No independent investigation was funded.

FEMA assembled a group of volunteer investigators: the Building Performance Assessment Team (BPAT), and gave them a budget of $600,000 to create their report.

FEMA's investigators lacked subpoena power.

They were not allowed to see the buildings' blueprints.

The investigators were barred from Ground Zero. They were only allowed to examine the few large pieces of steel in salvage yards.

Engineers examined no steel until late October.

Salvage yards were visited on 57 days by March 15.

They had to guess where the pieces came from.

They saved 156 pieces (mostly "coupons") out of millions for further study.

By the time BPAT published its report: The World Trade Center Building Performance Study, in May 2002, Ground Zero had been scrubbed.

Conclusions of FEMA's Study
* Pretended to explain the collapse of the North Tower
* Pretended the same explanation applied to the South Tower
* Admitted to cluelessness on cause of Building 7's collapse

On Building 7:
The specifics of the fires in WTC 7 and how they caused the building to collapse remain unknown at this time. Although the total diesel fuel on the premises contained massive potential energy, the best hypothesis has only a low probability of occurrence. Further research, investigation, and analyses are needed to resolve this issue.

On the Twin Towers:
With the information and time available, the sequence of events leading to the collapse of each Tower could not be definitively determined.




Destruction of Evidence

The primary evidence of the 3 largest structural failures in history -- the structural steel -- was removed and destroyed as quickly as possible.

The city accepted a plan by Controlled Demolition Inc. for the recycling of the steel, 11 days after the attack.

The steel was sold to scrap metal vendors for a low price.

The vast majority of the steel was quickly removed to ships destined for blast furnaces in India and China.

New infrastructure was built to accelerate the removal.

Trucks hauling the steel were outfitted with $1000 GPS locators.

Investigators were barred from Ground Zero.

People were threatened with arrest for taking photographs.

The evidence destruction operation was conducted over the concerted objections of victims' family members and the firefighting community

Building 7

Building 7 was a 47-story steel-framed skyscraper, occupying a city block north of the World Trade Center.

Building 7 had a World Trade Center address but:
Was on a different block from other 6 WTC buildings.
Was a different age and architecture than WTC.
Was 300' from nearest tower.

Building 7 was the only building outside WTC complex to collapse.




Building 7 Collapse: Textbook Implosion

The removal of a tall building with minimal damage to surrounding structures is an engineering feat.

The collapse of Building 7 had all of the important features of an engineered, or controlled, demolition.

The collapse was precisely vertical and symmetrical.

The building imploded, its walls falling inward.

It produced a tidy pile of rubble.


Building 7 Imploded

Building 7's exterior walls were pulled toward its central axis.
They ended up on the top of the rubble pile.


The Tidy Pile of Rubble

The 47-story tower was converted into a pile of rubble lying almost entirely within its footprint.
The rubble pile was less than 3 stories high.

The fall visibly damaged only one adjacent building.
Taking a building down into its footprint is the objective of controlled demolition.
It requires shattering all columns at ground level simultaneously, then marching the charge detonations up the building as it falls.


Building 7's Exclusive Tenants

Unlike rest of WTC, which came under private control in July 2001, WTC 7 was privately owned since its construction in 1985.

Building 7's short list of tenants consisted entirely of government and financial institutions.
Financial institutions
Salomon Smith Barney (SSB)
Standard Chartered Bank
Federal Home Loan Bank of New York
First State Management Group
TT Hartford Insurance Group
American Express Bank International
National Association of Insurance Commissioners (NAIC)
Government agencies
Equal Opportunity Commission (EEOC)
Internal Revenue Service (IRS)
Department of Defense (DOD)
Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)
Office of Emergency Management (OEM)
US Secret Service
Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC)

The collapse of Building 7 destroyed thousands of SEC casefiles of ongoing investigations into companies such as WorldCom.

Giuliani's Command Center

23rd floor of building was a bunker housing Giuliani's Emergency Command Center. It had:
bullet- and bomb-resistant windows
an independent, secure air and water supply
the ability to withstand winds of 160 MPH
an unobstructed view of entire height of both towers.
Command center was built in 1998, in response to 1993 bombing.
It was designed to respond to terrorist attack.
Yet on 9/11/01 it was supposedly abandoned.

Giuliani did not go to Building 7 that morning.
Instead, he went to makeshift headquarters on Barkley St.
He told ABC's Peter Jennings on 9/11/01
he received advance notice of the impending collapses:
"We were operating out of [the makeshift headquarters] when we were told that the World Trade Center was gonna collapse, and it did collapse before we could get out of the building."

Unfortunately the nearly 400 firefighters who were killed by the unexpected collapses did not have the benefit of this knowledge.




The Truss Failure Theory According to FEMA

FEMA's BPAT gave the truss failure theory the official stamp of legitimacy in their report.
They say the perimeter and core columns would self-destruct if the floor diaphragms collapsed:
As the floors collapsed, this left tall freestanding portions of the exterior wall and possibly central core columns. As the unsupported height of these freestanding exterior wall elements increased, they buckled at the bolted column splice connections, and also collapsed.

Tall freestanding columns?
We see only short freefalling column fragments.

The columns were not freestanding:
The perimeter columns were grids with horizontal spandrel plates linking the columns.
The core structures were lattices, densely cross-braced.


Wishing Away the Core Structures

They substitute service core for core structure to help the reader think the buildings were flimsy:
A rectangular service core with overall dimensions of approximately 87 feet by 137 feet, was present at the center of each building, housing 3 exit stairways, 99 elevators, and 16 escalators.
The service core in WTC 1 was oriented east to west, and the service core in WTC 2 was oriented north to south.

Deceptive illustrations imply that the towers had no core columns.

FEMA's core fraud became accepted fact.
The New York Times reported in May 2004:
"The interior core of the buildings was a hollow steel shaft, in which elevators and stairwells were grouped. "

one actual core column dimension, there were core columns with larger dimensions

jr said

Quote: Quote:asbestos - estimated in the billions of dollars - multi billion dollar insurance policy - air quality around ground zero in New York was toxic - debilitating diseases

Horse manure.

Shows the extent of your research.

jr said

Quote:I see. There was an explosion, then the plane hit the building.
OR
The plane hit the building, THEN there was another explosion.
If he was in the basement, how did he know WHAT happened, other than BANGS going off?

William Rodriguez, a janitor, reports an explosion in the basement moments before the airplane hits the North Tower. He was in basement level 1 (the basement has 6 sub levels) when the first explosion occured from under him which traveled up the elevator shaft and burned a co-worker in the basement.




jr said

Quote:Hmmm. The building was hit by parts of the top of WTC1 doing nearly 200 mph, made of steel, weighing 70 tons each, which penetrated 13 floors, starting numerous fires on their way down. These fires then burnt free and roamed for seven hours without setting any charges off.

Making it up as you go eh?

jr said

Quote: Witnesses also saw the plane strike the Pentagon - where did they get the DNA of the passengers and crew to check against the DNA they found?

Kin? Their clothing?

No, at the crash site, where the plane folded up and went into a small hole and then vaporized. You know, the plane that they have no serial numbered parts of. Planes are composed of serial numbered parts which are tracked for maintenance purposes.




jr said

Quote: Quote:(Shanksville) - Where are the "clear photographs showing aircraft wreckage"? Where are the plane parts with the tracking numbers on them?

95% of the plane is stored in a hangar at the nearest airfield, I believe.

Do you have any links to back up your assertion?

This post was copied from http://911research.wtc7.net for the most part.

[JazzRoc]

(08-31-2011 03:06 AM)icosaface Wrote:  How would you know what he did? I think he was a competent man and I think he investigated the situation thoroughly before he called for help, that way he would know what to ask for.

United Airlines Flight 175 crashed into the south tower, impacting between the 77th and 85th floors, with a much more off-centered impact compared with Flight 11, and only a single stairwell was left intact.
Only a few people managed to successfully pass through it before the tower collapsed. Although the south tower's floors of impact were lower, a smaller number, less than 700, were killed instantly or trapped. The south tower collapsed after burning for approximately 56 minutes due to fire, which caused steel structural elements, already weakened from the plane impact, to fail.
You are attempting to suggest that, using only a SINGLE staircase, this absolute hero of a firefighter traveled past THIS

To contact his base from above THIS

And that is stupid. (At least you are consistent.)

Quote:It's a fact. - Having trouble being specific eh?

It's no trouble at all.

Quote:You SO fail to understand how ANY of the buildings fell - (and in response you show highly detailed photos you cannot interpret.)

Quote:The towers had robust self-supporting core structures, 47 box columns a yard wide, steel 4" thick at base

And what thickness were they where the impact was? Was it less? Was it a LOT less? Didn't you know what it was, or was it that your BIGGEST number was BEST, and bugger the truth?
WAS THE WTC DEFECTIVELY DESIGNED? The World Trade Center was not defectively designed. No designer of the WTC anticipated, nor should have anticipated, a 90,000 L Molotov cocktail on one of the building floors. Skyscrapers are designed to support themselves for three hours in a fire even if the sprinkler system fails to operate. This time should be long enough to evacuate the occupants. The WTC towers lasted for one to two hours—less than the design life, but only because the fire fuel load was so large. No normal office fires would fill 4,000 square meters of floor space in the seconds in which the WTC fire developed. Usually, the fire would take up to an hour to spread so uniformly across the width and breadth of the building. This was a very large and rapidly progressing fire (very high heat but not unusually high temperature).

Quote:abundantly cross-braced, capable of supporting the entire weight of building, anchored directly to bedrock, and did not depend on floor diaphragms for support.

Well, actually, they DID. As a forest of separate slender columns they would look pretty silly in a 5 mph breeze - in fact they would lay themselves down.
If there was NO WIND at all - they'd be FINE.

Quote:The towers were designed to withstand 140 MPH winds. In such cases the floor diaphragms would help transfer lateral loads loads between perimeter walls and core. Otherwise, structural function of the floors was not in play.

Well, that might be true - if the towers hadn't already been damaged and sagged and leaning - if there hadn't been a fire softening the columns and wrecking the floors.

Quote:(Explosive ejections of dust and pieces): thick dust clouds spewed from towers in all directions, at around 50 feet/second.

Five times faster than that. Especially later.

Quote:Solid objects were thrown ahead of the dust -- a feature of explosive demolition

No, moron. A feature of the difference in air resistance/mass between powders and LARGER OBJECTS.

Quote:Some pieces of the perimeter wall were thrown laterally 500 feet.

A feature of buckling collapse. Ten seconds at 50 feet per second. Faster later, but less time to travel outward before hitting gzero.

Quote:Blast waves broke hundreds of windows in buildings over 400 feet away.

A manifestation of HIGH LEVELS OF SOUND ENERGY, of PRESSURE WAVES FROM COLLAPSING FLOORS.
The kerosine/air explosion was analogous to the Flixborough Disaster, where a cloud of cyclohexane gas ignited over the plant,and blew out windows five miles away.

Quote:All acceptable discourse--------------------your usual bollocks-------------------------of collapse or bombing?

A ludicrous summary of the reports, which, if you have read, you certainly didn't understand.

Quote:no real investigation. No independent investigation was funded

There should always have been TWO. Or maybe THREE. Or maybe...

Quote:They were not allowed to see---------------------your usual bollocks-------------------------same explanation applied to the South Tower

A ludicrous summary of the reports, which, if you have read, you certainly didn't understand.

Quote:Admitted to cluelessness on cause of Building 7's collapse, sequence of events leading to the collapse of each Tower could not be definitively determined

The initiation of an unstable event is unpredictable, in that it owes its onset to the slightest circumstance. Study some Chaos Theory. NOBODY can predict the unpredictable. That's what unpredictable means. You, I, anyone else, God - we'd ALL be clueless. Get it? (Shakes head.) Sheesh.
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/facts...082108.cfm

Quote:the structural steel was removed and destroyed as quickly as possible

Flogged off for scrap. Not destroyed. The first is easy to do. The second - completely impossible.

Quote:The evidence destruction operation

Slanderous. I know that representative samples were taken. Don't you?
You sound like creationist searching for a "gap" in a fossil sequence.

Quote:Building 7 was the only building outside WTC complex to collapse

WTC 5 was a nine-story building with uncontrolled fires that had complete burnout on a number of floors and partial collapse on four floors.

Quote:The collapse of Building 7 had all of the important features of an engineered or controlled demolition

Except bangs. Except by having been PRECEDED by seven hours of uncontrolled fire. Except laying its rear vertical face over itself.

Quote:The collapse was precisely vertical and symmetrical

WTC 7's collapse, viewed from the exterior (most videos were taken from the north), did appear to fall almost uniformly as a single unit. This occurred because the interior failures that took place did not cause the exterior framing to fail until the final stages of the building collapse. The interior floor framing and columns collapsed downward and pulled away from the exterior frame. There were clues that internal damage was taking place, prior to the downward movement of the exterior frame, such as when the east penthouse fell downward into the building and windows broke out on the north face at the ends of the building core. The symmetric appearance of the downward fall of the WTC 7 was primarily due to the greater stiffness and strength of its exterior frame relative to the interior framing.
The collapse began with column 79. It spread to its neighbors, and the bridge beam lost its footing, DROPPING the atrium. The left side and penthouse followed.
In the draft WTC 7 report (released Aug. 21, 2008; available at http://wtc.nist.gov/media/NIST_NCSTAR_1A...ment.pdf), NIST stated that the north face of the building descended 18 stories (the portion of the collapse visible in the video) in 5.4 seconds, based on video analysis of the building collapse. This time period is 40 percent longer than the 3.9 seconds this process would have taken if the north face of the building had descended solely under free fall conditions. During the public comment period on the draft report, NIST was asked to confirm this time difference and define the reasons for it in greater detail.
To further clarify the descent of the north face, NIST recorded the downward displacement of a point near the center of the roofline from first movement until the north face was no longer visible in the video. Numerical analyses were conducted to calculate the velocity and acceleration of the roofline point from the time-dependent displacement data. The instant at which vertical motion of the roofline first occurred was determined by tracking the numerical value of the brightness of a pixel (a single element in the video image) at the roofline. This pixel became brighter as the roofline began to descend because the color of the pixel started to change from that of the building façade to the lighter color of the sky.
The approach taken by NIST is summarized in Section 3.6 of the final summary report, NCSTAR 1A (released Nov. 20, 2008; available at http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR1/PDF/NCSTAR%201A.pdf) and detailed in Section 12.5.3 of NIST NCSTAR 1-9 (available at http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR1/PDF/NCSTAR%2...%202.pdf).
The analyses of the video (both the estimation of the instant the roofline began to descend and the calculated velocity and acceleration of a point on the roofline) revealed three distinct stages characterizing the 5.4 seconds of collapse:
Stage 1 (0 to 1.75 seconds): acceleration less than that of gravity (i.e., slower than free fall).
Stage 2 (1.75 to 4.0 seconds): gravitational acceleration (free fall)
Stage 3 (4.0 to 5.4 seconds): decreased acceleration, again less than that of gravity
This analysis showed that the 40 percent longer descent time - compared to the 3.9 second free fall time - was due primarily to Stage 1, which corresponded to the buckling of the exterior columns in the lower stories of the north face. During Stage 2, the north face descended essentially in free fall, indicating negligible support from the structure below. This is consistent with the structural analysis model which showed the exterior columns buckling and losing their capacity to support the loads from the structure above. In Stage 3, the acceleration decreased as the upper portion of the north face encountered increased resistance from the collapsed structure and the debris pile below.

Did investigators consider the possibility that an explosion caused or contributed to the collapse of WTC 7?
Yes, this possibility was investigated carefully. NIST concluded that blast events inside the building did not occur and found no evidence supporting the existence of a blast event. In addition, no blast sounds were heard on the audio tracks of video recordings during the collapse of WTC 7 or reported by witnesses. According to calculations by the investigation team, the smallest blast capable of failing the building's critical column would have resulted in a sound level of 130 decibels (dB) to 140 dB at a distance of at least half a mile, if unobstructed by surrounding buildings. This sound level is consistent with a gunshot blast, standing next to a jet plane engine, and more than 10 times louder than being in front of the speakers at a rock concert. For the building to have been prepared for intentional demolition, walls and/or column enclosures and fireproofing would have to be removed and replaced without being detected. Preparing a column includes steps such as cutting sections with torches, which produces noxious and odorous fumes. Intentional demolition usually requires applying explosive charges to most, if not all, interior columns, not just one or a limited set of columns in a building.

Is it possible that thermite or thermate contributed to the collapse of WTC 7?
NIST has looked at the application and use of thermite and has determined that its use to sever columns in WTC 7 on 9/11/01 was unlikely. Thermite is a combination of aluminum powder and a metal oxide that releases a tremendous amount of heat when ignited. It is typically used to weld railroad rails together by melting a small quantity of steel and pouring the melted steel into a form between the two rails. To apply thermite to a large steel column, approximately 0.13 lb of thermite would be needed to heat and melt each pound of steel. For a steel column that weighs approximately 1,000 lbs. per foot, at least 100 lbs. of thermite would need to be placed around the column, ignited, and remain in contact with the vertical steel surface as the thermite reaction took place. This for one column. Presumably, more than one column would have been prepared with thermite, if this approach were to be used.
It is unlikely that 100 lbs. of thermite, or more, could have been carried into WTC 7 and placed around columns without being detected, either prior to Sept. 11 or during that day. Given the fires that were observed that day, and the demonstrated structural response to the fires, NIST does not believe that thermite was used to fail any columns in WTC 7. Analysis of the WTC steel for the elements in thermite/thermate would not necessarily have been conclusive. The metal compounds also would have been present in the construction materials making up the WTC buildings, and sulfur is present in the gypsum wallboard used for interior partitions.

An emergency responder caught in the building between the 6th and 8th floors says he heard two loud booms. Isn't that evidence that there was an explosion?
The sound levels reported by all witnesses do not match the sound level of an explosion that would have been required to cause the collapse of the building. If the two loud booms were due to explosions that were responsible for the collapse of WTC 7, the emergency responder-located somewhere between the 6th and 8th floors in WTC 7-would not have been able to survive the near immediate collapse and provide this witness account.

Quote:The building imploded, its walls falling inward.

Let me tell you, sunshine, that implosion is a word only used by engineers and scientists to mean collapse by reason of overwhelming external pressure. The very fact you chant it and use it, is a CLEAR demonstration of your ignorance and gullibility.

Quote:It produced a tidy pile of rubble

As I have mentioned so many times previously, there is NO standard demolition technique which produces a "tidy pile" and lays a VERTICAL FACE OVER IT.

Quote:It requires shattering all columns at ground level simultaneously, then marching the charge detonations up the building as it falls

And HOW would that leave the rear face undamaged, you stupid (searches for epithet, fails...)?

Quote:Unlike rest of WTC---------------------your usual bollocks-------------------------"we were told that the World Trade Center was gonna collapse, and it did collapse before we could get out of the building." - Unfortunately the nearly 400 firefighters who were killed by the unexpected collapses did not have the benefit of this knowledge

What the FUCK is THAT supposed to mean?

Quote:The Truss Failure Theory According to FEMA

More like the Brain Failure Theory according to Icosahedron. What is it in your mind that leads you to believe that YOUR knowledge and understanding in these matters outranks theirs?

Quote:FEMA's BPAT gave the truss failure theory the official stamp of legitimacy in their report

Perhaps because its Science - something of which you aren't aware.

Quote:They say the perimeter and core columns would self-destruct if the floor diaphragms collapsed

ANOTHER example of your absolute IGNORANCE. Columns can FAIL in compression without being destroyed at all. They can fail without passing their elastic limit, which means they would be no different from the way they were prior to failure. Just like you, all the time.
You are simply an ignorant moron who is quite prepared to tell lies and slander people you don't know, for the sake of your unbalanced frame of mind.



I say you are UNBALANCED because your ignorance doesn't inhibit your behavior, when it should. Normal people (even engineers) don't pipe up when they know they are ignorant in some matter. For normal people, the understanding that one is in such a situation (ignorance) is the time to STFU.

Quote:As the floors collapsed, this left tall freestanding portions of the exterior wall and possibly central core columns. As the unsupported height of these freestanding exterior wall elements increased, they buckled at the bolted column splice connections, and also collapsed.

Well, there you are - exactly what I've been saying.

Quote:Tall freestanding columns? We see only short freefalling column fragments.

THAT is what happens to a column that fails by buckling: it SNAPS, and you end up with "short freefalling column fragments".

Quote:The columns were not freestanding: the perimeter columns were grids with horizontal spandrel plates linking the columns

It's one of the reasons they failed in unison. The fact that they were there wouldn't in any way prevent THIS mode of failure. I can see that you can't see this. It's quite a frustrating feeling.

Quote:The core structures were lattices, densely cross-braced.

Which is ONE of the reasons the towers RETURNED from leaning. IMPACT LOADS never occur in civil engineering calculations for obvious (only to some) reasons. Civil engineering expects to meet natural loads, like wind, rain, snow, and the additional weight of occupants and equioment. Impact loads dramatically exceed STATIC loads by ORDERS. LTSTFU.

Quote:Wishing away the core structures: they substitute service core for core structure to help the reader think the buildings were flimsy, deceptive illustrations imply that the towers had no core columns

Of course they did. They were such meanies.

Quote:FEMA's core fraud became accepted fact.

Either FEMA is fraudulent, or YOU are a LIAR. That's a choice? I don't see that. There is only one option. Which is NO option.

Quote:The New York Times reported

Well, of course, newspaper are manned by reporters not necessarily more aware than you are. In scientific terms - just as ignorant as you are.

Quote:Shows the extent of your research

I have covered ALL the material you have. I can merely interpret it better. Quite a few people here do a lot better than you - including me.

Quote:William Rodriguez, a janitor, reported an explosion in the basement moments before the airplane hit the North Tower. He was in basement level 1 (the basement has 6 sub levels) when the first explosion occured from under him which traveled up the elevator shaft and burned a co-worker in the basement.

The first explosion would have been the impact. The second, a second later, would have travelled DOWN the elevator shafts to the basement, blowing up the foyer on its way. It wouldn't have been impossible for it to be travelling UPWARD before it reached him.
I repeat: how did he know an aircraft hit the building when he was in the basement?

Quote:The building was hit by parts of the top of WTC1 doing nearly 200 mph, made of steel, weighing 70 tons each, which penetrated 13 floors, starting numerous fires on their way down. These fires then burnt free and roamed for seven hours without setting any charges off - Making it up as you go eh?

Merely making logical inferences and physical calculations from KNOWN FACTS, YES.

Did debris from the collapse of WTC 1 cause damage to WTC 7's structure in a way that contributed to the building's collapse?
The debris caused structural damage to the southwest region of the building-severing seven exterior columns - but this structural damage did not initiate the collapse. The fires initiated by the debris, rather than the structural damage that resulted from the impacts, initiated the building's collapse, after the fires grew and spread to the northeast region after several hours.
The debris impact caused no damage to the spray-applied fire resistive material that was applied to the steel columns, girders, and beams except in the immediate vicinity of the severed columns. The debris impact damage did play a secondary role in the last stages of the collapse sequence, where the exterior façade buckled at the lower floors where the impact damage was located. A separate analysis showed that even without the structural damage due to debris impact, WTC 7 would have collapsed in fires similar to those that occurred.
Something wrong with that?

Quote:where did they get the DNA of the passengers and crew to check against the DNA they found? - Kin? Clothing? - No, at the crash site

Pardon me? You said "against the DNA they found?" AND "No, at the crash site"? And I answered "Kin? Clothing?"
Please don't repeat "No, at the crash site" as if you were a mynah bird. Try engaging that pile of rotten fish between your ears.

Quote:the plane folded up and went into a small hole

THIS small hole?

Quote:and then vaporized

All of it?

Quote:You know, the plane that they have no serial numbered parts of

The Rolls-Royce RB211-535 (only fitted to the Boeing 757) fragments like these?

Quote:(Shanksville) - as usual you believe wrong or do you have any links to back up your assertion?

Only that they are in a mountain storage facility, according to an acquaintance. I'm still waiting for verification...oh, here it comes:




A licked stamp. A used razor blade. A forgotten toothbrush left out of its owner's suitcase. All over the world, these and other equally mundane items are being sought and retrieved from the desks, dressers and medicine cabinets of the people who were aboard United Flight 93 when it crashed into a Somerset County hilltop two weeks ago.
Those items will end up in Rockville, Md., at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology's DNA-identification laboratory - arguably the best in the nation at analyzing and matching DNA samples. Experts will attempt to match genetic material left behind on those items with DNA found in human remains recovered at the crash scene.
DNA comparison is just one of several techniques to be used by members of the federal Disaster Mortuary Operational Response Team, which is charged with recovering and identifying the remains of Flight 93's passengers, crew members and hijackers. All 44 people who were on board died in the crash.
The team that has been at work in Stonycreek, Somerset County, is one of several that have been activated to assist with identification of thousands of people who died in the terror attacks. Other teams have been sent to identify people who died at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
The teams were created in 1996 under the federal Aviation Disaster Family Assistance Act. That legislation was passed in response to calls for better, more coordinated assistance from families whose loved ones died in the September 1994 crash of USAir Flight 427 in Hopewell and other airline crashes.
The teams are part of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services' national disaster medical system. They are assigned to 10 regions around the country to identify victims after incidents with mass casualties.
Teams include forensic pathologists, anthropologists, dentists, fingerprint analysts, radiologists, X-ray technicians and others with scientific skills that can be used to identify remains. Members are private citizens who have offered their skills and who are activated and paid by the federal government to assist local coroners or medical examiners when disasters occur, said Paul Sledzik, who headed the team in Stonycreek.
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/24/in...index.html
These topics you raise have all been answered years ago. To continually raise them when they have been systematically debunked is to waste your (and everyone else's) time.

And remember:




You may also take the time to remember THIS.

"February, 2009. Hi there. I've only spent a few hours updating this site since early 2008, and won't be updating it in the future unless big news arises. I have several hundred links that I could add to the several thousand here, but enough is enough. The 9/11 "truth" movement has dried up and blown away, having achieved none of its stated objectives or even bothering to get a single significant claim correct.
However, let's remember that 9/11 won't be the last major internet-age event about which people with agendas – whether they be government spokesmen or basement-dwelling crackpots – aggressively spread falsehoods.
Unfortunately, falsehoods about the 9/11 attacks have their strongest foothold in Muslim countries." - Mark Roberts

Buckling Steel
Dr. Shyam Sunder, lead investigator for NIST's building and fire safety investigation into the WTC disaster, said, "While the buildings were able to withstand the initial impact of the aircraft, the resulting fires that spread through the towers weakened support columns and floors that had fireproofing dislodged by the impacts. This eventually led to collapse as the perimeter columns were pulled inward by the sagging floors and buckled. The reason the towers collapsed is because the fireproofing was dislodged. If the fireproofing had remained in place, the fires would have burned out and moved on without weakening key elements to the point of structural collapse. The concave bowing of the steel was seen on the sides of the towers opposite where the planes hit them. At 10:06 a.m. that morning, an officer in a police helicopter reported that 'it's not going to take long before the north tower comes down.' This was 20 minutes before it collapsed. In another radio transmission at 10:21 a.m., the officer said he saw buckling in the north tower's southern face. Engineers believe the bowing of the exterior steel beams near the flame-engulfed floors was the critical "triggering point" because that's the direction each tower tilted as it came crashing down. The report includes photographs taken from police helicopters showing the bending columns."
Key findings include:
1. Floor sagging and exposure to high temperatures caused the perimeter columns to bow inward and buckle - a process that spread across the faces of the buildings.
2. Even though the jet fuel on the planes burned off in the first few minutes after impact, there was enough office furniture to sustain intense fires for at least an hour.
3. The original builders of the twin towers and those who later renovated the structures did not have a clear technical standard for deciding on how much insulation to use around the structural beams, many of which gave way in the intense heat.

AN UNACCEPTIBLE RISK
We shoulder an unacceptable risk to because of specific nationalist foreign policies maintained by our governments. People who promote these erroneous 9/11 theories undermine efforts to focus on stopping these foreign policies.
We must take a serious look at the motives for the 9/11 attacks and call for a full review of the specific foreign policies that motivate terrorists to attack us. A lot of people are spreading this "controlled demolition" theory.
False theories like "9/11 was a controlled demolition" or "9/11 was an inside job" or "The WTC collapsed because of explosives" really screw up efforts to stop the specific foreign policies that put us all at risk.
These people never ever talk about ending the foreign policies...
U.S. foreign policy favoring Israel is what motivated the 9/11 terrorists. The plotter of 9/11, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, actually went to school in the U.S. He was angry at the U.S. not because of his experiences as a student, but because of that policy.

Quote:You've been pulling something between your legs for far too long.

Pick one and pretend the other 99 don't exist.



My favorite is "Hey, Lazerlips, your momma was a snow-blower!"

[Dunamis]

(09-01-2011 10:56 AM)JazzRoc Wrote:  

(08-31-2011 03:06 AM)icosaface Wrote:  How would you know what he did? I think he was a competent man and I think he investigated the situation thoroughly before he called for help, that way he would know what to ask for.

United Airlines Flight 175 crashed into the south tower, impacting between the 77th and 85th floors, with a much more off-centered impact compared with Flight 11, and only a single stairwell was left intact.
Only a few people managed to successfully pass through it before the tower collapsed. Although the south tower's floors of impact were lower, a smaller number, less than 700, were killed instantly or trapped. The south tower collapsed after burning for approximately 56 minutes due to fire, which caused steel structural elements, already weakened from the plane impact, to fail.
You are attempting to suggest that, using only a SINGLE staircase, this absolute hero of a firefighter traveled past THIS

Compare...

Quote:United Airlines Flight 175 into the south tower, impacting between the 77th and 85th floors. The damage caused to the north tower by Flight 11 destroyed any means of escape from above the impact zone, trapping 1,344 people. Flight 175 had a much more off-centered impact compared to Flight 11, and a single stairwell was left intact; however, only a few people managed to successfully pass through it before the tower collapsed. Although the south tower's floors of impact were lower, a smaller number, less than 700, were killed instantly or trapped. At 9:59 a.m., the south tower collapsed after burning for approximately 56 minutes due to fire, which caused steel structural elements, already weakened from the plane impact, to fail. The north tower collapsed at 10:28 a.m., after burning for approximately 102 minutes.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade...estruction



The slight edits don't stop google finding it.

I wonder how frequent this is? I cannot be bothered searching for more, it's really just a little depressing.

[icosaface]

In my previous post I suggested that explosions were taking place in the towers and that building 7 was a demolition. You can see evidence to support these assertions in the videos and pictures.

The powers that be refused to do an official inquiry until they were forced to by the Jersey girls campaign and the resulting public demand for one.

The powers that be decided to dispose of the evidence in landfills and overseas metal foundries within 11 days of 911 even though this was against the law. and even though there were human remains in the debris.
They treated the remains as though they were garbage.

The powers that be declared the air around ground zero was safe to breathe even though they knew it was laced with heavy metals, asbestos and other toxic contaminants.

The powers that be tried to put Henry Kissinger in charge of the 911 commission but he backed out when the Jersey girls asked him if he had Saudi Arabian clients (ie. the Bin Laden's ).

jr said

Quote:You are attempting to suggest that, using only a SINGLE staircase, this absolute hero of a firefighter traveled past THIS To contact his base from above THIS

I'm suggesting that we don't know whether he went past the 78th floor or not, I think he did, but we do know that there were is no indication that there were fires below the 78th floor, or that were hot enough to cause the windows to break, so steel was not being weakened by fires below the 78th floor.

Also, the picture you posted shows floors 77 to 83 and declares that you can see building 7 in the right side background. Building 7 was only 48 stories tall so we can't be seeing it.

If you had watched the video I posted of how the towers were built you would know that they were designed to withstand the impact of a fully loaded 707 as well as the resultant fires.

As you went higher in the towers the central core columns became thinner. The core columns were designed to hold the entire weight of the buildings and the exterior columns were designed to provide stiffness in hurricane force winds as well as providing secondary load bearing functions for the towers.

The temperature of core steel columns did not exceed 250 degrees C according to the FEMA BPAT investigation. There was not much combustible material in the central core.

jr said

Quote:No normal office fires would fill 4,000 square meters of floor space in the seconds in which the WTC fire developed. Usually, the fire would take up to an hour to spread so uniformly across the width and breadth of the building. This was a very large and rapidly progressing fire (very high heat but not unusually high temperature).

Battalion Chief Orio Palmer said that there were only two isolated pockets of fire on the 78th floor of the South tower. We see black smoke coming from the towers which indicates an oxygen starved fire. There was no chiminey effect in the towers as fire shutters had been installed on each floor to keep the elevator and utility shafts of the core from acting as air vents or chimnies.

jr said

Quote: Quote:Some pieces of the perimeter wall were thrown laterally 500 feet.

A feature of buckling collapse.

You have some links or other documentation of this "buckle collapsing" causing steel columns and "steel trees" to be hurled 500 feet horizontally?

Quote: Quote:Blast waves broke hundreds of windows in buildings over 400 feet away.

A manifestation of HIGH LEVELS OF SOUND ENERGY, of PRESSURE WAVES FROM COLLAPSING FLOORS.
The kerosine/air explosion was analogous to the Flixborough Disaster, where a cloud of cyclohexane gas ignited over the plant,and blew out windows five miles away.

It was one floor collapsing at a time and where is the evidence to show that windows were broken due to sound energy when the kerosene exploded?

jr said

Quote: Quote:The evidence destruction operation...

Slanderous. I know that representative samples were taken. Don't you?
You sound like creationist searching for a "gap" in a fossil sequence.

You sound like a gang member trying to obfuscate the removal and destruction of evidence from the scene of a crime that his gang committed.

Quote: Quote:The collapse of Building 7 had all of the important features of an engineered or controlled demolition

Except bangs. Except by having been PRECEDED by seven hours of uncontrolled fire. Except laying its rear vertical face over itself.

Many eye witnesses reported loud bangs and where is the video or photographic evidence of uncontrolled fires of any significant size going on for a 7 hour period in building 7.

Lets have a look at an analysis of the speed at which building 7 fell done by David Chandler .




jr said

Quote:Let me tell you, sunshine, that implosion is a word only used by engineers and scientists to mean collapse by reason of overwhelming external pressure. The very fact you chant it and use it, is a CLEAR demonstration of your ignorance and gullibility.

im·plo·sion (m-plzhn)
n.
1. A violent collapse inward, as of a highly evacuated glass vessel.
2. Violent compression.
3. The inward collapse of a building that is being demolished in a controlled fashion by the weakening and breaking of structural members by explosives.
4. Linguistics The pronunciation of a stop consonant with the breath drawn in.
from http://thefreedictionary.com/implosion

jr said

Quote: Quote:Unlike rest of WTC---------------------your usual bollocks-------------------------"we were told that the World Trade Center was gonna collapse, and it did collapse before we could get out of the building." - Unfortunately the nearly 400 firefighters who were killed by the unexpected collapses did not have the benefit of this knowledge

What the FUCK is THAT supposed to mean?

I think you can figure out what it means.





jr said

Quote: Quote:The Truss Failure Theory According to FEMA

More like the Brain Failure Theory according to Icosahedron. What is it in your mind that leads you to believe that YOUR knowledge and understanding in these matters outranks theirs?

Oh my god, crushed by an appeal to authority and poor mental health accusations , how can I carry on?

jr said

Quote: Quote:They say the perimeter and core columns would self-destruct if the floor diaphragms collapsed

ANOTHER example of your absolute IGNORANCE. Columns can FAIL in compression without being destroyed at all. They can fail without passing their elastic limit, which means they would be no different from the way they were prior to failure. Just like you, all the time.
You are simply an ignorant moron who is quite prepared to tell lies and slander people you don't know, for the sake of your unbalanced frame of mind.



I say you are UNBALANCED because your ignorance doesn't inhibit your behavior, when it should. Normal people (even engineers) don't pipe up when they know they are ignorant in some matter. For normal people, the understanding that one is in such a situation (ignorance) is the time to STFU.

Oh, ok Bill O'Reilly, I must be exposing the truth because your insults have increased considerably.

The video you included talks about wood beam buckling , the towers were composed of steel and , in case you haven't heard , steel under compression behaves differently than wood. I don't see the relevance to what we are talking about.

I think you were trying to tie it into steel columns buckling and coming apart at their welds, snapping rather than bending, retaining their original shape and being tiddly winked on a horizontal vector but you presented no evidence to show that that is possible in an actual steel frame strucure physical experiment.

jr said

Quote: Quote:the plane folded up and went into a small hole

THIS small hole?

Notice the empty spools at the bottom of the photo, notice how they were not blown away from the area or pushed into the building or smashed into the ground as they should have been by the effect of an airplane flying over top of them.



I am posting this now, jr's post carries on with insults, innuendo and pseudo scientific observations and I don't want these posts to be so long that others won't read them. I will respond to the rest of jr's post sometime today.

[JazzRoc]

(09-01-2011 07:45 PM)Dunamis Wrote:  I wonder how frequent this is? I cannot be bothered searching for more, it's really just a little depressing.

It's almost as if the two accounts were of the same event, isn't it?

Oh. They WERE about the same event. Maybe one was a paraphrase of the other.

Shocking. Your stupidity, that is.

You hypocrisy, on the other hand, is only to be expected.

[icosaface]

jr said

Quote:AN UNACCEPTIBLE RISK
We shoulder an unacceptable risk to because of specific nationalist foreign policies maintained by our governments. People who promote these erroneous 9/11 theories undermine efforts to focus on stopping these foreign policies.
We must take a serious look at the motives for the 9/11 attacks and call for a full review of the specific foreign policies that motivate terrorists to attack us. A lot of people are spreading this "controlled demolition" theory.
False theories like "9/11 was a controlled demolition" or "9/11 was an inside job" or "The WTC collapsed because of explosives" really screw up efforts to stop the specific foreign policies that put us all at risk.
These people never ever talk about ending the foreign policies...
U.S. foreign policy favoring Israel is what motivated the 9/11 terrorists. The plotter of 9/11, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, actually went to school in the U.S. He was angry at the U.S. not because of his experiences as a student, but because of that policy.

The above ignores evidence and motives and insists that the official reports were correct and that the solution is to change nationalist policies which would make foriegn individuals attack the US in revenge. It further implies that anyone who says that 911 was an inside job is dangerous because they are detracting from the effort being made to change nationalist policies that cause people to want to attack the US.

Dave Chandler adds to the plausible case of NIST complicity in the 911 cover up for you to consider.

[JazzRoc]

(09-01-2011 08:18 PM)icosaface Wrote:  I suggested that explosions were taking place in the towers

And I suggested that explosions occur naturally in fires.

Quote:Building 7 was a demolition. You can see evidence to support these assertions

Where?*

Quote:The powers that be refused to do an official inquiry

What "power" was that?*

Quote:The powers that be decided to dispose of the evidence

What "power" was that?*

Quote:The powers that be declared the air around ground zero was safe

What "power" was that?*

Quote:The powers that be tried to put Henry Kissinger in charge

What "power" was that?*

Quote:steel was not being weakened by fires below the 78th floor

Well THAT's about as inconsequential as you could ever get.
There's quite a cracker of a fire on the 83rd, don't you think?
And as it's obviously STILL drawing inward, those fire temperatures are headed for the core steelwork.

Quote:Building 7 was only 48 stories tall so we can't be seeing it.

Another case of your pants hanging down.
If the photo was taken from a helicopter, you NOW have to prove it DIDN'T have an sightline which included both the relevant floors of both buildings.
Go on...

Quote:If you had watched the video I posted of how the towers were built you would know that they were designed to withstand the impact of a fully loaded 707 as well as the resultant fires.

I wouldn't waste my time with the media you preselect. Except when I discover that there's good evidence being willfully misinterpreted. That isn't a rare event with "truthers". I then REUSE the evidence with a better interpretation. That isn't difficult.
"Fully loaded" is, of course, an assertion NOT borne out by Leslie Robertson, the architect. He mentions that the assumptions homed mainly on the largest passenger aircraft of that time (Boeing 707) lost in fog, traveling slow, and searching for a local airport.
"Resultant fires" - Robertson said something to the effect of "I don't know how anyone could have suggested how much fuel the aircraft would have been carrying. We didn't enter the fuel into our calculations."

Quote:The temperature of core steel columns did not exceed 250 degrees C according to the FEMA BPAT investigation. There was not much combustible material in the central core.

Hot finished carbon steel begins to lose strength at temperatures above 300°C and reduces in strength at steady rate up to 800°C. The small residual strength then reduces more gradually until the melting temperature at around 1500°C. This behavior is similar for hot rolled reinforcing steels. For cold worked steels including reinforcement, there is a more rapid decrease of strength after 300°C (Lawson & Newman 1990). In addition to the reduction of material strength and stiffness, steel displays a significant creep phenomena at temperatures over 450°C. The phenomena of creep results in an increase of deformation (strain) with time, even if the temperature and applied stress remain unchanged.
High temperature creep is dependent on the stress level and heating rate. The occurrence of creep indicates that the stress and the temperature history have to be taken into account in estimating the strength and deformation behavior of steel structures in fire. Including creep explicitly within analytical models, is complex. For simple design methods, it is widely accepted that the effect of creep is implicitly considered in the stress-strain-temperature relationships.
That lower limit for creep to begin is dangerously close to the temperatures claimed. Creep would allow the central core to transfer a proportion of the downward load it carried to the already-compromised external columns via the tower's top hat truss.

No normal office fires would fill 4,000 square meters of floor space in the seconds in which the WTC fire developed. Usually, the fire would take up to an hour to spread so uniformly across the width and breadth of the building. This was a very large and rapidly progressing fire (very high heat but not unusually high temperature) - You may think I'm saying this, but I'm quoting.

Quote:Battalion Chief Orio Palmer said that there were only two isolated pockets of fire on the 78th floor of the South tower. We see black smoke coming from the towers which indicates an oxygen starved fire. There was no chimney effect in the towers as fire shutters had been installed on each floor to keep the elevator and utility shafts of the core from acting as air vents or chimneys.

So let's use that picture again.

Let's see... NOTHING externally visible on Floor 78.
A LARGE fire on Floor 79.
But what's this? A MASSIVE FIRE on Floor 81 extending above Floor 83.
Are you STILL maintaining he climbed above these fires, with only a single working staircase? What bollocks. I'm not insulting you - just describing you. Bollocks after bollocks after bollocks.

Quote:You have some links or other documentation of this "buckle collapsing" causing steel columns and "steel trees" to be hurled 500 feet horizontally?

The demand for such information is very low. If you had any, you could have tried commonsense. If you had any.
However, there IS an approach that will work, involving the KNOWN TIME for a single floor collapse. Here's how it works:
In the time to collapse the floor, the CENTER of the snapping column moves sideways SIX FEET.
If the time taken is 0.1 seconds, then the broken column ends will be doing SIXTY FEET PER SECOND.

Blast waves broke hundreds of windows in buildings over 400 feet away

Quote:where is the evidence to show that windows were broken due to sound energy when the kerosene exploded?

I'd have to say JR's commonsense. It is a VERY LARGE AIR/FUEL EXPLOSION. Such a large explosion had further-reaching effects at Flixborough.

Quote:You sound like a gang member trying to obfuscate the removal and destruction of evidence from the scene of a crime that his gang committed

Instead of an elderly British qualified engineer living in retirement in Tenerife. All hail your imagination. Pity it has no relation to reality.

Quote:(WTC7) - Many eye witnesses reported loud bangs and where is the video or photographic evidence of uncontrolled fires of any significant size going on for a 7 hour period in building 7.

Quote:Lets have a look at an analysis

Let's not, eh, because it only involves a quarter of the collapse time, observing no more than HALF of one face of the building.

Quote:Let me tell you, sunshine, that implosion is a word only used by engineers and scientists to mean collapse by reason of overwhelming external pressure. The very fact you chant it and use it, is a CLEAR demonstration of your ignorance and gullibility - The inward collapse of a building that is being demolished in a controlled fashion by the weakening and breaking of structural members by explosives

Which it wasn't, for no evidence supported this.

Quote:I think you can figure out what it means

That happened a long time ago. It's why you are described, and not insulted. To call you stupid is an insult to stupid people.

Quote:Oh my god, crushed by an appeal to authority and poor mental health accusations, how can I carry on?

Explain how you do.

Quote:The video you included talks about wood beam buckling, the towers were composed of steel and, in case you haven't heard, steel under compression behaves differently than wood. I don't see the relevance to what we are talking about.

You wouldn't. It's a question of PRINCIPLE, and a powerful feature of LOGIC. You have neither.
One of the rules of SCIENCE is that physical rules are consistent.
The only different in performance between a wooden column and a steel column will be the differing elastic moduli for each material, which will give a different value for the load which causes failure in each case. But the principle remains the same. That's what science is, and your failure to acknowledge this IS your PSEUDOSCIENCE.
And the principle makes it clear that columns may fail by compressive buckling without ever even exceeding their plastic limit. They CAN fail without sustaining the slightest damage. But that didn't happen in this case...

Quote:I think you were trying to tie it into steel columns buckling and coming apart at their welds, snapping rather than bending, retaining their original shape and being tiddly winked on a horizontal vector but you presented no evidence to show that that is possible in an actual steel frame structure physical experiment.

I should be encouraged. You are at least straining your fish to understand what I'm trying to tell you.
Take a piece of spaghetti out of the packet. Stand it vertically on a rubber mat, and push down on it from above, as vertically as you can make it. See how fast the fragments depart the scene.

Quote:Notice the empty spools at the bottom of the photo, notice how they were not blown away from the area or pushed into the building or smashed into the ground as they should have been

Should they?
Do you KNOW what the temporary overpressure WAS on those spools?
Do you know that that overpressure was not even there, because the wing had failed, and was bending upwards to strike the Pentagon wall in a near-vertical position?

Quote:jr's post carries on with insults, innuendo and pseudo scientific observations

Is THAT all you see?

*I have asked you DOZENS of questions, and you have answered NONE of them.

"Insults" are descriptions. "Innuendos" I don't do. And pseudoscience is YOUR world; mine has been a 40-years professional life in engineering.

Quote:I don't want these posts to be so long that others won't read them

Gerraway.

Oh, by the way, An error does not become truth by reason of multiple propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it.

---

(09-01-2011 10:55 PM)icosaface Wrote:  AN UNACCEPTABLE RISK
We shoulder an unacceptable risk to because of specific nationalist foreign policies maintained by our governments. People who promote these erroneous 9/11 theories undermine efforts to focus on stopping these foreign policies.
We must take a serious look at the motives for the 9/11 attacks and call for a full review of the specific foreign policies that motivate terrorists to attack us. A lot of people are spreading this "controlled demolition" theory.
False theories like "9/11 was a controlled demolition" or "9/11 was an inside job" or "The WTC collapsed because of explosives" really screw up efforts to stop the specific foreign policies that put us all at risk.
These people never ever talk about ending the foreign policies...
U.S. foreign policy favoring Israel is what motivated the 9/11 terrorists. The plotter of 9/11, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, actually went to school in the U.S. He was angry at the U.S. not because of his experiences as a student, but because of that policy.

Quote:The above ignores evidence and motives

You have just demonstrated to everyone HOW governments manipulate stupid people, for you demonstrate how manipulated you already are.
The argument points out "U.S. foreign policy favoring Israel is what motivated the 9/11 terrorists."
And you don't even mention it. You move on. It's as if it never existed.

Quote:It further implies that anyone who says that 911 was an inside job is dangerous because they are detracting from the effort being made to change nationalist policies that cause people to want to attack the US.

And you cannot see this, can you?

So to distract, let's have some Dave Chandler, repeating your bollocks, bollocks, bollocks.

There are explosions within fires, and buildings NEVER end up collapsing silently.
As floors drop one at a time, they tend to make crashing noises, like a railway train if you like.
They are NEVER silent when they do this.

Oh, by the way, An error does not become truth by reason of multiple propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it.

[Dunamis]

(09-01-2011 09:02 PM)JazzRoc Wrote:  

(09-01-2011 07:45 PM)Dunamis Wrote:  I wonder how frequent this is? I cannot be bothered searching for more, it's really just a little depressing.

It's almost as if the two accounts were of the same event, isn't it?

Oh. They WERE about the same event. Maybe one was a paraphrase of the other.

Shocking. Your stupidity, that is.

You hypocrisy, on the other hand, is only to be expected.

Are you being quite serious? Hypocrisy? I always source that which I QUOTE. You clearly took what was there and removed a slight bit and posted it un-sourced as if they were your words.

Such at university would have anyone on charges of plagiarism.

[JazzRoc]

(09-02-2011 01:23 AM)Dunamis Wrote:  Are you being quite serious? Hypocrisy? I always source that which I QUOTE. You clearly took what was there and removed a slight bit and posted it un-sourced as if they were your words.
Such at university would have anyone on charges of plagiarism.

There really isn't much point in quoting a source when its content isn't being challenged.
There also isn't much point in quoting a source which is already quoting another source when its content isn't being challenged. This quite often occurs exactly as you describe, when the wording is adjusted, not to alter the meaning, but to exclude facts not relevant to the issue. I even do it myself, but to be honest I do not recall whether I had to or not. And it isn't relevant whether I did or not.
If you are challenging the content, then I shall obtain the source from you, shan't I?
ARE you challenging the content?

Here's a tip: if you aren't, then YOU are the hypocrite. Or stupid and confused. Take your pick.