Sites Like This Are Now Hate Sites - Guest - 09-06-2006 01:29 AM
I think now more than ever we need to word things very carefully.
16 months in the slammer is quite a stint for "free speech".
http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/stor...a31&k=58869
Authority to 'chastise' Jews claimed
Ancient writings left accused in charge of future of Jewish people, court told
Chris Purdy, The Edmonton Journal
Published: Wednesday, December 14, 2005
EDMONTON - Reinhard Mueller says he's not a bigot and doesn't hate Jewish people.
But ancient writings have declared him the Lion of the Tribe of Judah and left him in charge of their future, he says.
"I hold a spiritual office. With it comes my authority over the destiny of the Jewish people," Mueller told a jury Tuesday.
As part of his role, he is not allowed to hate Jews, nor advocate their murder, he said.
"But I have the right to chastise them. That is my right. It comes with the office I hold."
Mueller, 62, is on trial for operating an anti-Semitic website called Federation of Free Planets that denied the Holocaust and described Jewish persons as "sub-humans" and "demons."
The site also claimed Jews are responsible for creating the Ebola and AIDS viruses, the collapse of the World Trade Centre towers and the Columbia space shuttle disaster.
It is believed to be the first Internet hate crime trial in Alberta.
Mueller, who changed his name to Reni Sentana-Ries following his arrest last year, admits he wrote the material and posted it on the website between 1999 and 2003.
He claims he was simply exercising freedom of speech. He has pleaded not guilty to a charge of wilfully promoting hatred.
The jury is to begin deliberations today.
Crown prosecutor Steve Bilodeau told the jury that Mueller's ideas and even references to outer space may seem outrageous, but his mental state is not an issue at trial.
"He knows the difference between right and wrong," Bilodeau said. "He knows what's socially appropriate."
Representing himself without a lawyer, Mueller spent several hours talking to the jury.
He said he worked as an engineering technician for 35 years and once ran as federal candidate for the Social Credit party. He now considers himself an investigative journalist.
"The reason I write is to make this world a better place to live in," he said.
He told the jury that 350,000 Jews -- not six million -- died in the Holocaust. The media, controlled by the Jewish elite, inflated the number and wrongly blamed Adolf Hitler, he said.
Bilodeau said Mueller is entitled to believe what he wants and talk about his ideas to his wife and friends.
"The danger arises when hateful opinions are voiced to the public for the purpose of persuasion," Bilodeau said. "When he tries to persuade others, then it's criminal."
He said Mueller had a worldwide audience through his website, and police found several e-mails from readers.
One 16-year-old who e-mailed Mueller wrote: "It's hard to find people who think like you... The Jews are the real criminals and the bad, rotten apples of the world."
cpurdy@thejournal.canwest.com
© (infringed for fair use) The Edmonton Journal 2005
Sites Like This Are Now Hate Sites - Guest - 09-06-2006 01:33 AM
Quote:Canada - Jew hater gets prison
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/?p=2666
In a precedent-setting case, a Two Hills engineer was sent to jail for 16 months for showing what the judge called an appalling level of hatred toward Jews on his website. Crown prosecutor Steven Bilodeau said the case will be a benchmark for future cases because its the first hate-crime conviction in Canada involving Internet postings. We needed a sentence like this to send a strong message that theres no room in this country for hate like this, said Bilodeau following yesterdays sentencing.
Justice Philip Clarke told court he couldnt entertain a conditional sentence in the case because of the total absence of remorse shown by Reni Sentana-Ries, 63.
He does not believe his actions to be illegal, but rather a sharing of truth and hope for society, said Clarke.
Sentana-Ries, who changed his name from Reinhard Mueller, was found guilty by a jury in December of wilfully promoting hatred for anti-Semitic writings he posted on his website, Federation of Free Planets.
On the site, he blamed Jews for everything from lying about the Holocaust to engineering the AIDS virus to kill scores of people and make the population easier to control.
He referred to Jewish people in terms like debauched, subhuman and demons.
Sentana-Reiss website is still operational and is hosted in the United States. However, the judge has ordered him to shut it down.
Bernie Farber, chief executive officer of the Canadian Jewish Congress, called Sentana-Riess diatribes among the most vile and disgusting anti-Semitic displays hes ever seen.
Yesterday, Farber applauded the sentence.
The judge has issued a clarion call to hatemongers in this country, saying if youre going to commit a hate crime, youre going to sit in jail, he said.
Many people that come across a website like this already have hate in their hearts. This stokes that hate.
During often-bizarre sentencing arguments Thursday, Sentana-Ries, who acted as his own lawyer, informed court that he held the title of Lion of the Tribe of Judah and as such was the guardian and protector of Jewish people.
He also said he and his wife, Seila Sentana-Ries, had been persecuted for nearly a decade by various spy agencies because of their secret powers and knowledge.
Sentana-Riess hard time will be followed by three years probation, during which he wont be allowed on the Internet, either at home or in cyber cafes.
Cops will also be allowed to raid his home without a warrant to make sure hes not going online, ordered Clarke.
The hard drives on Sentana-Riess seized computers - which he fought in court to get back - will be erased.
After Sentana-Ries, a tiny white-haired man clad in a sage-green suit, was led into custody by sheriffs, Seila wandered around the courthouse in a daze. Its so unfair. They should never lock him up, she said.
Seila claimed Sentana-Ries was only trying to get the truth out about the world economy with his writings.
We could have set up our economic system in any country to free all people from crime, poverty and bondage without one drop of blood being shed.
ES
Sites Like This Are Now Hate Sites - harflimon - 09-06-2006 01:35 AM
Can they disprove what he says beyond a reasonable doubt? And what else is the point of talking to the public other than to persuade them? You are always trying to persuade them to what you think is the truth. As long as he isn't advocating the death of jews he shouldn't be in trouble at all. Guess Canada is in big trouble with the laws they are passing.
Edit: BTW how can he get into trouble if he is hosting it in America? Wouldn't America have to arrest and charge him instead?
Sites Like This Are Now Hate Sites - deathstickboy - 09-06-2006 01:37 AM
I think both those guys went further than we have. I am familliar with the hate crime laws, and technically, nothing here fits the category of hate speech as it is defined in Canadian Law.
As long as you don't call (insert ethnic/reigious group) sub-human, or "incite hatred" by blaming them as a whole for things like AIDS, you should be ok.
The whole concept of "inciting hate" is bullshit though. I think unless you actually incite somone to do violence, there is no crime at all.
It would be different if he gave a speech, and then the crowd went and lynched some jews or something, but I am sure there are already laws for that anyways.....fucking ADL lobbyists....
Sites Like This Are Now Hate Sites - rockclimber - 09-06-2006 01:40 AM
For crying out loud, it's retroactive punishment?
Point taken Ctrl.
The old U.S. and Canada are now legislating thought-control. To what extremes may they go in the future? :angry:If freedom of speech isn't sacred, what is?
This could set a new precedent...ouch
Sites Like This Are Now Hate Sites - Guest - 09-06-2006 01:53 AM
Quote:As long as he isn't advocating the death of jews he shouldn't be in trouble at all. Guess Canada is in big trouble with the laws they are passing.
I'm rather nervous about it. Especially being in the same province under the same provincial court system. <_<
Considering one guy already bitched to my ISP about DBS and threatened to go to the federal police here, I really don't like the prospect of having my chain yanked every time one of you speaks some anti-zionist truth. :angry:
Quote:Hate Propaganda
Advocating genocide
318. (1) Every one who advocates or promotes genocide is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years.
Definition of genocide
(2) In this section, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy in whole or in part any identifiable group, namely,
(a) killing members of the group; or
(B) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction.
Consent
(3) No proceeding for an offence under this section shall be instituted without the consent of the Attorney General.
Definition of identifiable group
(4) In this section, identifiable group means any section of the public distinguished by colour, race, religion, ethnic origin or sexual orientation.
R.S., 1985, c. C-46, s. 318; 2004, c. 14, s. 1.
Public incitement of hatred
319. (1) Every one who, by communicating statements in any public place, incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace is guilty of
(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or
(B) an offence punishable on summary conviction.
Wilful promotion of hatred
(2) Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is guilty of
(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or
(B) an offence punishable on summary conviction.
Defences
(3) No person shall be convicted of an offence under subsection (2)
(a) if he establishes that the statements communicated were true;
(B) if, in good faith, the person expressed or attempted to establish by an argument an opinion on a religious subject or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text;
© if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds he believed them to be true; or
(d) if, in good faith, he intended to point out, for the purpose of removal, matters producing or tending to produce feelings of hatred toward an identifiable group in Canada.
Forfeiture
(4) Where a person is convicted of an offence under section 318 or subsection (1) or (2) of this section, anything by means of or in relation to which the offence was committed, on such conviction, may, in addition to any other punishment imposed, be ordered by the presiding provincial court judge or judge to be forfeited to Her Majesty in right of the province in which that person is convicted, for disposal as the Attorney General may direct.
Exemption from seizure of communication facilities
(5) Subsections 199(6) and (7) apply with such modifications as the circumstances require to section 318 or subsection (1) or (2) of this section.
Consent
(6) No proceeding for an offence under subsection (2) shall be instituted without the consent of the Attorney General.
Definitions
(7) In this section,
communicating
« communiquer »
communicating includes communicating by telephone, broadcasting or other audible or visible means;
identifiable group
« groupe identifiable »
identifiable group has the same meaning as in section 318;
public place
« endroit public »
public place includes any place to which the public have access as of right or by invitation, express or implied;
statements
« déclarations »
statements includes words spoken or written or recorded electronically or electro-magnetically or otherwise, and gestures, signs or other visible representations.
R.S., 1985, c. C-46, s. 319; R.S., 1985, c. 27 (1st Supp.), s. 203; 2004, c. 14, s. 2.
Warrant of seizure
320. (1) A judge who is satisfied by information on oath that there are reasonable grounds for believing that any publication, copies of which are kept for sale or distribution in premises within the jurisdiction of the court, is hate propaganda shall issue a warrant under his hand authorizing seizure of the copies.
Summons to occupier
(2) Within seven days of the issue of a warrant under subsection (1), the judge shall issue a summons to the occupier of the premises requiring him to appear before the court and show cause why the matter seized should not be forfeited to Her Majesty.
Owner and author may appear
(3) The owner and the author of the matter seized under subsection (1) and alleged to be hate propaganda may appear and be represented in the proceedings in order to oppose the making of an order for the forfeiture of the matter.
Order of forfeiture
(4) If the court is satisfied that the publication referred to in subsection (1) is hate propaganda, it shall make an order declaring the matter forfeited to Her Majesty in right of the province in which the proceedings take place, for disposal as the Attorney General may direct.
Disposal of matter
(5) If the court is not satisfied that the publication referred to in subsection (1) is hate propaganda, it shall order that the matter be restored to the person from whom it was seized forthwith after the time for final appeal has expired.
Appeal
(6) An appeal lies from an order made under subsection (4) or (5) by any person who appeared in the proceedings
(a) on any ground of appeal that involves a question of law alone,
(B) on any ground of appeal that involves a question of fact alone, or
© on any ground of appeal that involves a question of mixed law and fact,
as if it were an appeal against conviction or against a judgment or verdict of acquittal, as the case may be, on a question of law alone under Part XXI, and sections 673 to 696 apply with such modifications as the circumstances require.
Consent
(7) No proceeding under this section shall be instituted without the consent of the Attorney General.
Definitions
(8) In this section,
court
« tribunal »
court means
(a) in the Province of Quebec, the Court of Quebec,
(a.1) in the Province of Ontario, the Superior Court of Justice,
(B) in the Provinces of New Brunswick, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, the Court of Queens Bench,
© in the Provinces of Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland, the Supreme Court, Trial Division,
(c.1) [Repealed, 1992, c. 51, s. 36]
(d) in the Provinces of Nova Scotia and British Columbia, in Yukon and in the Northwest Territories, the Supreme Court, and
(e) in Nunavut, the Nunavut Court of Justice;
genocide
« génocide »
genocide has the same meaning as in section 318;
hate propaganda
« propagande haineuse »
hate propaganda means any writing, sign or visible representation that advocates or promotes genocide or the communication of which by any person would constitute an offence under section 319;
judge
« juge »
judge means a judge of a court.
R.S., 1985, c. C-46, s. 320; R.S., 1985, c. 27 (2nd Supp.), s. 10, c. 40 (4th Supp.), s. 2; 1990, c. 16, s. 4, c. 17, s. 11; 1992, c. 1, s. 58, c. 51, s. 36; 1998, c. 30, s. 14; 1999, c. 3, s. 29; 2002, c. 7, s. 142.
Warrant of seizure
Quote:320.1 (1) If a judge is satisfied by information on oath that there are reasonable grounds for believing that there is material that is hate propaganda within the meaning of subsection 320(8) or data within the meaning of subsection 342.1(2) that makes hate propaganda available, that is stored on and made available to the public through a computer system within the meaning of subsection 342.1(2) that is within the jurisdiction of the court, the judge may order the custodian of the computer system to
(a) give an electronic copy of the material to the court;
(B) ensure that the material is no longer stored on and made available through the computer system; and
© provide the information necessary to identify and locate the person who posted the material.
Notice to person who posted the material
(2) Within a reasonable time after receiving the information referred to in paragraph (1)©, the judge shall cause notice to be given to the person who posted the material, giving that person the opportunity to appear and be represented before the court and show cause why the material should not be deleted. If the person cannot be identified or located or does not reside in Canada, the judge may order the custodian of the computer system to post the text of the notice at the location where the material was previously stored and made available, until the time set for the appearance.
Person who posted the material may appear
(3) The person who posted the material may appear and be represented in the proceedings in order to oppose the making of an order under subsection (5).
Non-appearance
(4) If the person who posted the material does not appear for the proceedings, the court may proceed ex parte to hear and determine the proceedings in the absence of the person as fully and effectually as if the person had appeared.
Order
(5) If the court is satisfied, on a balance of probabilities, that the material is available to the public and is hate propaganda within the meaning of subsection 320(8) or data within the meaning of subsection 342.1(2) that makes hate propaganda available, it may order the custodian of the computer system to delete the material.
Destruction of copy
(6) When the court makes the order for the deletion of the material, it may order the destruction of the electronic copy in the courts possession.
Return of material
(7) If the court is not satisfied that the material is available to the public and is hate propaganda within the meaning of subsection 320(8) or data within the meaning of subsection 342.1(2) that makes hate propaganda available, the court shall order that the electronic copy be returned to the custodian and terminate the order under paragraph (1)(B).
Other provisions to apply
(8) Subsections 320(6) to (8) apply, with any modifications that the circumstances require, to this section.
When order takes effect
(9) No order made under subsections (5) to (7) takes effect until the time for final appeal has expired.
2001, c. 41, s. 10.
[edit] As for the "Defences" section of the code. That didn't do Zundel an ounce of good. That's right in the transcript.
Sites Like This Are Now Hate Sites - Guest - 09-06-2006 01:59 AM
Also note in the in the code, (quote inside quote) I'm required to rat you out. :angry:
Sites Like This Are Now Hate Sites - harflimon - 09-06-2006 02:01 AM
Wow so it's basically aimed at computers. If he had published a book in America saying the same things it seems like they couldn't have done anything to him.
Or is it because he had the stuff stored on his hard drive? Because it seems odd for them to be able to charge him for the data if it was only stored on an American server and he never posted any of it while in Canada. It would be hard for them to prove he did. I guess this is all a side-point since the servers for this forum are in Canada.
It seems we will have to watch what we say from now on.
Sites Like This Are Now Hate Sites - deathstickboy - 09-06-2006 02:05 AM
Most important part to be aware of for the sake of shaping/self policing ones statements
Quote:Defences
(3) No person shall be convicted of an offence under subsection (2)
(a) if he establishes that the statements communicated were true;
(b ) if, in good faith, the person expressed or attempted to establish by an argument an opinion on a religious subject or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text;
© if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds he believed them to be true; or
(d) if, in good faith, he intended to point out, for the purpose of removal, matters producing or tending to produce feelings of hatred toward an identifiable group in Canada.
Sites Like This Are Now Hate Sites - Guest - 09-06-2006 02:13 AM
Quote:It seems we will have to watch what we say from now on.
Not what we say. That's defeat. How we say it is 'tactic'.;)
So we clarify. We respectfully refer to Jews and Jews, Zionists as Zionists and so forth.
Sites Like This Are Now Hate Sites - OWN-the-NWO - 09-06-2006 09:36 AM
exactly ctrl you have to look at this from the standpoint of a lawyer.
for ex:
it is clearly evident that there was a zionist connection to 9/11, mossad agents were caught and deported, this was even reported on fox news. They have their sympathizers within our government (the neocons) who were clearly in collusion on some level with them. Who masterminded the project is anyones guess and still a contention of hot debate, but it is clear there was collusion.
Sites Like This Are Now Hate Sites - wokensheep - 09-06-2006 05:20 PM
soon it will be a crime to speak out against 911 the way these hate laws are going.
Sites Like This Are Now Hate Sites - deathstickboy - 09-06-2006 05:51 PM
Maybe. In Canada we still have some judges who are not retarded assholes though. Ever few months I see postive rulings (positive like security does not trump personal freedom and stuff like that) and the Supreme Court is still more on the side of the people, or at least it seems that way.
This current hate law is borderline, but if they came up with anything harsher, it would be easy to challenge in court and win, IMO. You could appeal it right up to the supreme court if need be.
Essentially, so long as you do not advocate destruction or refer to other groups as less than human, you should be fine. The ADL did not get the hate laws it wanted when the bill went through parliament it was toned down to what we have now.
Some ADL defined anti-semitism, like talking about international banking, and zionist conspiracies, is perfectly fine to discuss, especially given : Quote:© if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds he believed them to be true;
Its not hard to demonstrate the influence of the state of Israel, and pointing it out is in our public intrest since it is a foreign power which is manipulating our political process and essentially undermining our democracy and our sovereignty.
Sites Like This Are Now Hate Sites - High_Treason - 09-06-2006 06:49 PM
I feel sick after reading about this law...I think people need to take the streets to change this stupid hate bill, especially that its creating a lot of anger inside that could have been vented out through words but now I wonder how people will vent it?
Besides it doesn't change anything, people will still have their opinions about different cultures and races so I don't really see the point of such a law
Sites Like This Are Now Hate Sites - tsoldrin - 09-06-2006 07:00 PM
This is outrageous... and very chilling. One thing that cannot be overlooked is that even if you have a good leg to stand on in defense, court costs alone as well as just the trouble of a long, drawn out judicial process can be an axe hanging over your head in such a situation. We must tread carefully.
This one thing stuck in my head from the first article:
"The danger arises when hateful opinions are voiced to the public for the purpose of persuasion," Bilodeau said. "When he tries to persuade others, then it's criminal."
Isn't that what ALL the news media is doing right now? Inciting anti-arab hatred to make the wars in the middle-east more palatable to the people?
Isn't it also what ALL politicians do when they smear the opponents in a race?
Pot and Kettle.
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