The West is the best - humbug - 09-12-2007 09:16 PM
Hail Manticore, Defender of the West!
and one for the kids
they might even have them in orange
The West is the best - Manticore - 09-12-2007 09:21 PM
Quote:Yeah exactly. The forums can still be a little thin on reasoning, opinion articulation/exchange and debating but are unfortunately rather rich in name-calling and uttering knee-jerk machismo lingo.
You have to excuse Ognir, after all he is Irish. :biggrin:
Well Phil, I sometimes get the impression Im debating with children. Theye have a small vocabulary and consequently respond emotionally.
The West is the best - Shinobi - 09-12-2007 09:36 PM
This all gets stranger by the second.
The West is the best - humbug - 09-12-2007 09:38 PM
UNfortunately the basis for your "West is Best-Theory" is total polarization. for yourself and own convenience, you just successfully divided all humans of the planet into two groups(here we go again, by Isis and Osiris!!) and stand on a wobbly fundament made of gross generalizations.
Have you ever not taken everything you read literally?
Have you ever read the Bible? Do you think it is a revised edition? Did you understand it? Really?
Have you ever read the Koran? Do you think it is a revised edition? Did you understand it? Really?
Have you ever read Mythology? Do you think it is a revised edition? Did you understand it? Really?
Have you ever read a History book? Do you think it is a revised edition? Did you understand it? Really?
Have you ever read a Newspaper? Do you think it is a revised edition? Did you understand it? Really?
EDIT: lol, yeah stranger by the second.
The West is the best - ephilution - 09-12-2007 09:56 PM
I couldn't agree with you more Mike, that was an excellent manifesto of reason and fairness.
Quote:If 'the west is the best', it is certainly not because of you in any way, shape or form. asshole.
No need for that ZB. Have a week off to cool down. You're suspended.
For insulting this guy?
Do WE...and I do mean WE "as concen" (ie: ALL OF US) want to appear to have a dogma? A theology?
A certain way that "YOU MUST THINK" to express yourself here?
I'm sorry if you think I'm defending this guy. I disagree with him wholeheartedly, however, flaming people, ad homimem attacks or whatnot make us look no better than a Bill O'Rielly or a Sean Hannity.
This is not the first time ZB's flamed someone's introductory post. Frankly, I'm tired of his shit....not his message.... I'm sick of the flaming presentation.
ZB could have said "dude, you're out to lunch, and here's reasons 1,2,3 why".... instead the n00b's an arsehole. Well fuck that shit!
While I might not agree with what the guy has to say, I will defend his right to say it. We're freedom lovers
here yes? Since when did we only defend some people's right to an opinion?
I also disagree with Manticore's basic rather mainstream philosophy but I also see no point in counteracting his arguments with flaming and trolling because then to any reasonable jury he has already won the argument and makes everyone who has trolled him look like a dork. Is ConCen about dorkhood (another neologism) or about reason?
Come on people tackle Manticore by solid fact-based reasoning not by acting like know-it-all clowns and throwing rotten eggs and tomatoes at him like obstinate children rather than well-versed critical thinkers and debaters.
If you are confident in your attempts to debunk Manticore you should be able to level a sound argument against the issues he raises and the position he is assuming. Don't lower yourself to launching silly knee-jerk ad hominem attacks. Those are self-defeating acts of desperation and should never be used since they are tell-tale signs of him having the advantage of argument and coming out as victor in the debate simply by absence of significant opposition.
Manticore is challenging you as critical thinkers, not as little children.
The West is the best - humbug - 09-12-2007 10:12 PM
Morals and Dogma. Let anyone flame, he is no nOOb, he was born in 1961. this thread which has been fishy(a dutch lesson on etiquette?) but enjoyable from the very beginning is turning into some sort of bad us sitcom with a moral and "real" family values at the end. please no preaching pippi, everybody flames sometimes, this stuff can be very emotional. I wish we were all a wee more balanced, give us some time.
this guy has a serious problem with all not west especially islam, lets deal with it, good cop bad cop
Edit: project manticore
The West is the best - mothandrust - 09-12-2007 10:12 PM
yeah Phil (and Ctrl) spot on. although i think the 'Irish' insult at Og was below the belt.
having said that, to my mind, Og was at least as rude as ZB.
The West is the best - ephilution - 09-12-2007 10:29 PM
Quote:Morals and Dogma. Let anyone flame, he is no nOOb, he was born in 1961. this thread which has been fishy(a dutch lesson on etiquette?) but enjoyable from the very beginning is turning into some sort of bad us sitcom with a moral and "real" family values at the end. please no preaching pippi, everybody flames sometimes, this stuff can be very emotional. I wish we were all a wee more balanced, give us some time.
The lack of decent debunking of Manticore's position and abundance of silly knee-jerk responses made it very necessary for me to emphasize the position Mike already expounded.
this guy has a serious problem with all not west especially islam, lets deal with it, good cop bad cop
Edit: project manticore
I preach whenever I feel the need to. This is one of those times. If you find my timing or frequency inopportune then that's just too bad dude.
Of course we all troll and flame at frivolous times but we should constrain ourselves at times when serious matters are brought on the table. At least, that's how I feel about it.
The West is the best - Shinobi - 09-12-2007 10:35 PM
Perhaps someone could make a topic of all of this
I still want this guy to answer my serious simple question
The West is the best - Manticore - 09-12-2007 10:55 PM
Quote:I think you'll find that the emergence of Deobandist Islam ( eg. Taliban)in India during British colonial rule is closer to the root cause of the militant strains of Islam you're looking to blame for all the world's ills.
The root cause of the militant Islam is Islam.
Do you know where the biggest holocaust in history was? It was in India where about a 100.000.000 Hindus were murdered in the Islamic struggle to conquer that land. Polytheists, people who believe in more than one god, are in Islam considered the worst of man. Worser then even a Jew or an unbeliever. If you want to I can proof this by opening the holy books. Just ask. But anyway, I dont think bringing India up was a good idea.
Quote:This being another example of cultural dysfuntion stemming from murderous colonialisation.
You talk about murderous colonialisation and then you cherry pick just one example. I couldnt find the list of Asia but this will do just as well. Lets see how your friends from the middeleast have dune:
Quote:From: Europe under Muslim rule http://www.jamatdawa.org/english/articl
In 674 AD, it was raided and in 653 AD Amir Muaviya conquered it and stationed a garrison of 12,000 men on the island. It remained under Muslim rule up to 966 AD. It was captured by Kara Mustafa again in 1570-71, during the reign of Sultan Selim II.
Greece started coming under Muslims form 652 and remained as such up to 1918 a period of 1266 years. Rhodes was attacked in 652 AD, during the reign of Amir Muaviya. A Muslim colony was established. Later on it was withdrawn. It was again conquered by Turks during the reign of Solayman the magnificent in 1532. It was conquered by Muslims from Spain during the period of Khalifa Hakam. It remained under Muslim hands up to 961 when it was taken by Byzantine Empire. The Island was again attacked by Turks in 1645. The chief city Candia was laid siege to for 25 years. In 1397, the rest of Greece was conquered during Bayezid I and Greek Empire became a tributary to the Sultan.
Sicily was subjected to raids from Muslims in Egypt between 652-70 and even Syracuse, the capital, was laid under tribute but it owed allegiance to the Roman Empire till 826. It was conquered by Moors from North Africa. In 962, the Island was completely Muslim. Their dominance remained upto 1060. Muslims from Sicily used to attack Calabria, Compania, Brantia, Locania and Appolia in South Italy and occupied them temporarily. If there had been any united leadership of Muslim forces there can be little doubt that the whole of Italy would have fallen to them. But unfortunately the Amirs of Sicily insisted upon their own independence while the Moors had severed connection with Caliphate of Baghdad and this mutual bickering thwarted the establishment of Muslim rule over the whole of the Italy.
The first expedition to Sardinia was sent in 707 AD which conquered it. The second was sent by Musa in 712. During the reign of Abdur-Rahman, in 773, Muslims exposed it to attacks. In 808 Spanish Muslims attacked Sardinia but were defeated. In 809, African Muslims attacked and in 820 a Muslim fleet attacked it.
FRANCE First Attempt:
In 719 Arabs started pouring in Septimania, in southern France. They occupied cities of Carcassone, Narbonne and Avignon in 730. Spain's new Governor Abdul Rahman planned to conquer whole of France and started capturing Geronne and Bourdeaus. He marched forward across river Loire with the object of capturing Tours. He fought a battle in 732 somewhere between Tours and Poiters and was defeated utterly. No further attempt was made by Muslims on this side.
On the second campaign Muslims attacked the coasts of the Province on the frontier. But the last attack had a much wider expanse and extended from Dauphine right upto the borders of Germany. Province was conquered and the Emirate head quarter was Fraxinet, now the village of Gade Frainet which is situated at the foot of Mt. Alps. The period starts from 889. By the year 906 Muslims crossed the Dauphine, crossing Mont. Cenis and made themselves masters of the Novalese Abbey which was situated in the Valley of Suse on the frontier of Piedmont. In 911, all the passes of Mount Alps between France and Italy were controlled by Muslims.
In 908 Muslim adventures came to the coast of the Longuedoc. In 920 Muslims crossed Pyrenees, laid waste a considerable part of Gascony right upto the gates of Toulouse.
Marseilles and Aix were invaded. In 935, they advanced upto Liguia. In 939, they conquered the district of Valais and Trantaine country fell on their feet and district of Valais and Trantaine country fell on their feet and in 940 Frejus, a port.
Narbonne remained for 40 years. An attempt was made again to capture Narbonne in 1019 AD the Comarague country in South France was under Muslims for some time.
In 1003, the Spanish Muslims attacked the neighborhood of Antibes and carried off with them among others a number of clergy. In 1019, Muslims disembarked opposite Narbonne. In 1047 the Island of Lerins which was under Muslim domination 300 years ago was invaded and number of monks were carried away. The incursions into France by sea continued up to the great development of the French Navy and did not really came to an end till the occupation of Algiers by the French in 1832.
Its occupation by Turkey was started in 1363 but the whole country was conquered by 1393. It remained under Muslim rule for 551 years.
Since 1393, Bayezed commenced a system of raids into Hungary for plunder only.
King of Hungary appealed in 1395 to the Christian powers of Europe and backed by Pope, France, England, Scotland, Italy, Germany, Knights of Jerusalem, Romania and Yugoslavia started in the nature of crusade.
This combined force was defeated by Muslims at Nicopolis.
Turks after 1421 were engaged in constant raids into Hungary.
RUSSIA, UKRAINE,BELLA RUSSIA
The southern areas of Azerbaijan, Daghestan, Georgia and Armenia were conquered by Muslim in 641 A.D., and remained under Arabs, Persians and Turks upto 1878 except for intermittent periods.
Malta fell to Muslim attacks even before 652 A.D. The hold on Malta was stronger than on Sicily and Muslim influence was more firmly established as the Maltese language is a dialect of Arabic. The island was lost to Islam in 1090. Turks led a naval attack on Malta in 1565. It was attacked again in the same year but Turks could not conquer it although they were masters of Mediterranean Sea. It remained under Muslims for 438 years.
The small principality was under Amirate of Fraxinet during 889-975. In the later period it was attacked by Muslims several times.
In 846 a fleet form the African coast sailed up to Tiber and the Muslim warriors actually entered Rome. The invaders were driven back. But three years later another attack was launched by Aghlabid monarch Muhammad, who sent a fleet form Sardinia. The ships cast anchor 16 miles from Rome and prepared to land troops. By the efforts of Pope Leo IV an alliance of maritime countries was hastily formed to counter the threatened attack and defenders aided by a great storm were able to route the Muslim fleet at the battle of Ostia. In 813 Muslims attacked Civi Vecchia in the neighbourhood of Rome.
WESTERN COAST OF ITALY
The district of Genoa and Pisa were subject of constant attack form Sardinia particularly during the reign of Al-Mujahid.
In 906 Muslims crossed French border at Mont Cenis made themselves masters of Novalese Abbey in Suse on the Piedmontese frontier. In 911 Muslims were masters of all the lines of communications between France and Italy. They made frequent descents into the plains of Piedmont and Montferrat. In 935 some adventurers from Africa attacked Montferrat, massacred the males and made it the centre of their numerous expeditions as well as place of refuge from the enemy. In the later period Italian coasts were the constant target of Muslim ravages. Muslims conquered Piedmont, Montferrat and Liguria. Al-Mujahid became the master of Denia and Balearic Islands and became terror to the Inhabitants of Corsica, Sardinia, Pisa and Genoa. Turks about 1456 crossed the frontier of Italy and ravaged the region of Friuli in North East Italy. .
Poland was under Muslim Rule when Golden Horde conquered Cracow and Rzeszow. It is probable that they controlled the area for about two centuries, 1272-1453. In 1672, Turkey attacked Poland and the city of Kaminiec, the capital of Podolia was captured. The terror of Muslim invaders along the old Danube highway hang over Europe for centuries.
The occupation of the country starts from 1393, When Silistra and Widdin were captured by Bayazid 1, Sultan of Turkey.
Mediterranean Sea and European Coasts
In 1538, the Turkish Navy defeated the combined naval force of Spain, Venice (Italy) and Pope, a number of times. This made them master of Mediterranean Sea. Muslims from North Africa ravaged the coasts of Spain, Italy and France and even occasionally of England and Ireland devastating the cities and villages and carrying away booty and captives. The city of Bristol in England used to be the main target. The coasts of Portugal at Madeira was roamed by Algerians even upto 1670.
(Remember the above quotes were written by a muslim historian)
Religion of peace hu?
In 632 Mohammed, the founder of Islam died. In 732, in northern France, Charles Martel beat the plundering Muslim armies. This proofs were dealing with a very aggressive bunch of people. In just one hundred year they managed to conquer basically half the world. I don't think the West is the worser of the two. Why you still favor the other?
By the way, these constant Muslim attacks were the cause of the crusades.
The West is the best - Manticore - 09-12-2007 11:11 PM
Quote:That's ridiculous!! You threw out a load of quotes from the Koran about intorlerance to justify your seemingly untenable position and then when offered the same sort of quotations from the Talmud you declare it a 'clever trick' which doesn't prove anything.
I didnt use the word clever
I agreed that the content of both books is barbaric. I dont write to please Jews. But can you show me one Talmud text that orders to kill unbelievers
To me thats a big difference!
Quote:Where's the logic in that one?what have you actually proved other than that you were using a "clever trick" yourself? And now because your obviously overly provocative entrance succeeds you begin to resort to labelling people as infantile with limited vocabularies.
That was a response to Irish politeness.
The West is the best - Manticore - 09-12-2007 11:14 PM
Quote:The most violent element in society is ignorance. Emma Goldman
I fully agree with that!
The West is the best - Shinobi - 09-12-2007 11:15 PM
Whats the real answer to my question.....
The West is the best - Manticore - 09-12-2007 11:36 PM
Quote:UNfortunately the basis for your "West is Best-Theory" is total polarization. for yourself and own convenience, you just successfully divided all humans of the planet into two groups(here we go again, by Isis and Osiris!!) and stand on a wobbly fundament made of gross generalizations.
By calling themselves Muslim, Muslims separate themselves from the rest. You cant make me the divider.
The West is the best - humbug - 09-12-2007 11:49 PM
More about what YOU label them, I call them humans and we are in this shit together.
I feel solidarity for the many, ruled by few. Who cares about race, creed, nationality and other divisors (why accept the label?).... it seems you are the "childish" one, although you could easily be my dad