ConCen

Says it all. The people that are doing this openly talking about what i have written.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycc0WSxHz...embedded#!

(01-22-2011 06:01 PM)Defendfreedom Wrote: [ -> ]Says it all. The people that are doing this openly talking about what i have written.
(Slack YouTube video compilation, which is: )

Yet another rehashing of thoroughly debunked topics. Topics brought forward by shopkeepers.
One's first response is to go off looking for disproof. This is a mistake, because these shopkeepers offer one up the rope to hang themselves with. One only has to wait...

So you are saying the people behind the cloud seeding don't know what they are talking about. They are on the video openly talking about what i said in my article. You asked for facts and proof i gave you the very people behind the spraying on camera admitting what they are doing and not knowing what the affects will be. Anybody who needs more will have to look elsewhere because if the very scientists responsible for this, admitting what they are doing is not enough then i can do no more.
This will be my last post on this thread as its starting to get repetative.

(01-22-2011 07:52 PM)Defendfreedom Wrote: [ -> ]So you are saying the people behind the cloud seeding don't know what they are talking about. They are on the video openly talking about what i said in my article. You asked for facts and proof i gave you the very people behind the spraying on camera admitting what they are doing and not knowing what the affects will be. Anybody who needs more will have to look elsewhere because if the very scientists responsible for this, admitting what they are doing is not enough then i can do no more.

Cloud seeding involves piloting a light plane into the updraught beneath a cumulonimbus cloud, so that the siver iodide smoke can do its job up the forming chimney of the cloud, of seeding rain drops.
This is frequently used to PREVENT the generation of large HAILSTONES, which can ruin ripening orchards, strawberry fields, etc..
Of course the pilots wouldn't necessarily know what their results were! A lot of the time, they're flying in cloud... LOL

Cloud-seeding isn't "weather modification". Sensible people know that.

These "criminal" cloud-seeders are licensed by the gov't, and contract themselves to local govts, corporations and farmers who need this service.
They have been so registered from the times when doctors used to experiment on the clinically insane.
There must be a link in that somewhere for you.

Quote:This will be my last post on this thread as its starting to get repetative.

Repetitive.
I'd believe you if you didn't also say that 2 days ago. Drop dead, why don't you?

(01-22-2011 09:31 AM)Defendfreedom Wrote: [ -> ]scientists in Abu Dhabi, have successfully manipulated entire weather systems, causing up to fifty downpours of rain across the Al Ain region in the desert nation over the last year.

Is that the "entire weather system" across "Al Ain region in the desert"? Gosh.

Quote:That's one in the eye for those people who never look up at what's going on above them. Maybe they are just to busy concentrating on not standing on any dog pooh to notice the shit that's being dumped on them from above.

Especially if you're in Abu Dabi. Do they have dogs in Abu Dhabi?

Quote:It amazes me how people can go about their daily lives not noticing all the planes flying overhead leaving streaks of white clouds behind turning a clear blue sky into a murky haze within a matter of hours with

Water.

Quote:Don't even try to explain those trails left by the planes as mere vapour trails as

You will stick your fingers in your ears, close your eyes and yell "La, la, la, la, etc."

Quote:Those of you who occasionally do look up at the sky will probably have noticed that these false clouds sometimes look as though they have been vibrated or radiated in some way, anybody thinking H.A.A.R.P.

Ooo, yes - those clouds are DEFINITELY FALSE.
Strangely, you will find them all in old books on clouds - even those made round the turn of the twentieth century. Then, of course the world was JUST BLACK AND WHITE.
It has colored up because the colors escaped from the "chemtrails" and were "fixed" to the B&W world by HAARP radiation.
If you don't believe that, it just shows how brainwashed you have become. Moron.

Quote:Look it up folks if you aint heard of this, as these people are playing at god and if it goes wrong we are all going to pay.

We are all paying for you, and that's bad enough.

Quote:you say i have lied and have no proof of chemtrails.

You have lied and have no proof of chemtrails.

Quote:I stated that the British public had been used as guinea pigs

And that is a lie.
Representative portions of the British countryside were used as test areas, these tests being absolutely necessary for Civil Defense and DETERRENCE.

Quote:No matter the reason for the tests

Of course.
It was a very much better idea to LIE DOWN and surrender before (Stalin to Gorbachev) released their weapons.
That way they would REALLY BE DETERRED.
Irresponsible morons like you should be offered one-way tickets to the Falkland Isles, where you can only harm sheep.

Quote:I never mislead anybody

Quote:and the facts stated by me

Aren't facts at all.

Quote:As for showing you the proof that chemtrails are real Its been well documented even in the news if you take the time to look...

The KSLA fraud. Quite visibly crap without assistance from contrailscience, but for the hard of thinking....

Was it 6.8 or 68.8 parts per million?
The water was drinkable, believe it or not, and NOT OUTSIDE the EPA limit.
In fact it was 34 times inside the limit.
The tests were conducted in such a non-scientific way that no conclusions could be drawn from them at all.

IN STAMPS, ARKANSAS - THE CENTRE OF USA's BARIUM MINING AREA.

Quote:I never mislead anybody

Quote:I personally do not want to be anybody's guinea pig no matter the reason and the spraying program that is happening above us is making us exactly that.

I earnestly wish that someone followed you around all day, spraying you with insecticide.

Quote:You sound like a piece of government propaganda.

I hoped I sounded like your worst enemy.

Quote:News flash governments lie.

Yes they do, but not with the monotonous consistency of your lying.
The fact is that once you get your hands on "facts", all truth disappears.

Quote:My article is an honest piece written in good faith.

You are a liar.

You still won't admit the context of these trials, even though you're pushing TV vids on me which START with the context you won't admit to on this thread. Interesting doublethink.

Quote: accusing me of misleading, being a liar and calling me scum, that is offensive and untrue.

Unfortunately, calling you LYING SCUM is ACCURATE and CORRECT.

Quote:Even if you were there which i do not doubt, it dose not mean you know everything that was going on.

So dance in your "gaps", o-god-of-the-gaps. Yes, there were all sorts of secrets which were hardly going to be available to student apprentices. But the place piqued my interest for many reasons, and I have followed and picked up its history, even returning last year to a centennial celebration of apprentice aeroengineers, as the balloon factory originally started up just before 1910. I've gathered quite a bit of info over 40+ years.

Quote:Do not believe everything you are told.

I'll begin with YOU, if you don't mind.
I take a pretty strong exception to an illiterate who is quite happy slandering innocents in his ignorant and selfish desire to rewrite history. (Especially mine.)

Naturalmiztic Wrote: ⁠ 

In response to Jazz Roc comment about what I said below being too general...

It is similar to 911, and its effects on societies' collective psychology which has slowly eroded more and more civil liberties. Giving more power to governments and corporates or whatever institution is corrupting and gaining more and more from disempower everýday people. The more the disempowerment of individuals to mass propaganda the more the individuals leave making effective changes or simple solutions to government or other larger organistions to fix it. If more people use their own logic and common sense to make conscientious choices some large corporations will lose money, governments won't generate taxes...

I did mean to specify so this comment makes more sense... If people read the labels on the household cleaning products that goes down the drain into water ways or into soil they wouldn't use them in clear conscience or logical thinking would tell them it's not right or read more about the chemicals. So if people changed their habits, this would mean chemical companies manufacturing large quantities of these chemicals would not make money, and governments would benefit from their taxes, but governments also wouldn't have to try to take these chemical out of waste water prior to putting the water back in the ocean. A whole chemical system needs to refined. Who can help to change it everyday people. How...stop put man made nasty chemicals down the drains...other systems will also follow if everyone accepts as common knowlege that putting chemicals into nature is not good. Farming practices, fossil fuel use and other industrial chemical use would change all so we can have clean rain water, seafood and vegetables and meat to eat.

But detering by talking up chemtrails leads to disempowerments...everyday people can't stop a mystery plane high in the sky but they will worry, and they will stop doing what they can control which will actually make a difference. 911 disempowered and put fear into Western society...society's collective psychology is still vulunerable.

---

(01-22-2011 09:19 PM)JazzRoc Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-22-2011 07:52 PM)Defendfreedom Wrote: [ -> ]So you are saying the people behind the cloud seeding don't know what they are talking about. They are on the video openly talking about what i said in my article. You asked for facts and proof i gave you the very people behind the spraying on camera admitting what they are doing and not knowing what the affects will be. Anybody who needs more will have to look elsewhere because if the very scientists responsible for this, admitting what they are doing is not enough then i can do no more.

Cloud seeding involves piloting a light plane into the updraught beneath a cumulonimbus cloud, so that the siver iodide smoke can do its job up the forming chimney of the cloud, of seeding rain drops.
This is frequently used to PREVENT the generation of large HAILSTONES, which can ruin ripening orchards, strawberry fields, etc..
Of course the pilots wouldn't necessarily know what their results were! A lot of the time, they're flying in cloud... LOL

Cloud-seeding isn't "weather modification". Sensible people know that.

These "criminal" cloud-seeders are licensed by the gov't, and contract themselves to local govts, corporations and farmers who need this service.
They have been so registered from the times when doctors used to experiment on the clinically insane.
There must be a link in that somewhere for you.

Quote:This will be my last post on this thread as its starting to get repetative.

Repetitive.
I'd believe you if you didn't also say that 2 days ago. Drop dead, why don't you?

Cloud seeding may be legal but that doesn't make it good and without consequence. It is weather modification, playing around with the weather isn't good. Humans are already putting stress on our planet, weather seeding is used to fix symptoms instead of causes and is a very slippery slope. Modifying or changing weather locally impacts of weather in other areas metrologIsts are only now starting to find out how interconnected weather patterns are, when their is investment in research.

(01-23-2011 04:46 AM)Naturalmiztic Wrote: [ -> ]A whole chemical system needs to refined. Who can help to change it everyday people. How...stop put man made nasty chemicals down the drains...other systems will also follow if everyone accepts as common knowlege that putting chemicals into nature is not good. Farming practices, fossil fuel use and other industrial chemical use would change all so we can have clean rain water, seafood and vegetables and meat to eat.

Strange English, but I'll cope.
"Chemical systems" ARE refined, and techniques exist to absorb effluents. Some legislation will always be needed to tighten up disposal practices, as new materials come on line.
It is EDUCATION in SCIENCE and CIVICS that is deficient.

Quote:they will worry, and they will stop doing what they can control which will actually make a difference.

Exactly. They will be demotivated from political action and social responsibility.

Quote:Cloud seeding may be legal but that doesn't make it good and without consequence.

No, we should allow hail to ruin crops. (?)

Quote:It is weather modification

No, it ISN'T. There is such a thing as SCALE. There is a difference between a few pounds of silver iodide saving a plum orchard and a continental storm. One could NOT bring on the other. (I forgot to mention the general cultural ignorance of mathematics, and especially statistics.)*

Chemtrailers rapidly confabulate such things with their Chinese Whispers.

* And engineering and chemistry, more to the point.

Sorry for not quoting here but hope this makes sense...
By using the word system I meant the 'closed system' of chemical manufacturing, use, disposal. But it isn't 'closed' because it leaches into water ways, soil, food, flora, fauna etc...

It's a perception of small scale weather modification, changing the weather is changing the weather. Even with benefits of saving food cloud seeding is not good...water trucks which produce pollutions would be better than mucking around with the atmosphere and weather. Build a dam, plant more around waterways, companion plant to retain better soil moisture improve the biodiversity address the cause not the symptoms of making land drought prone. That's just my thoughts anyways

(01-24-2011 12:42 PM)Naturalmiztic Wrote: [ -> ]Build a dam, plant more around waterways, companion plant to retain better soil moisture improve the biodiversity address the cause not the symptoms of making land drought prone. That's just my thoughts anyways.

I couldn't agree with you more.

The above activities are worth doing, whilst "chemtrails" is a wild goose chase.

They are also HARD to do, whereas the latter is PISS.

Quote:Interesting that the SOLE reason for "secret biological weapons trials" was the COLD WAR, and that hasn't been deemed fit to be mentioned in this illiterate, innumerate, and mendacious article.
Nor did the presenter think it necessary. Perhaps he thought that no-one knew ENOUGH to question this.
Well I DO.
Enough to know that the MOD's actions were logical and necessary, probably ensuring the safety of EVERYONE in Britain from attack by Soviet ICBMs carrying anthrax and nerve gas.

The widespread MOD/CDEE/MRE Porton Down Biological Warfare field trials conducted between 1940-1976 did not result in the establishment of a UK BW detection/warning/identification system.

So JazzRoc is incorrect in deducing that the MOD’s actions probably ensured the safety of ‘EVERYONE in Britain from attack by Soviet ICBMs carrying anthrax and nerve gas’.

It is a common misconception among some members of the public that Porton Down conduct research with the purpose of providing protection for the public. They do not.

They themselves stress that they provide CBW countermeasures for the Armed Forces – the Home Office are responsible for the protection of the general public, not the MOD.

No UK BW detection/warning/identification system, as envisaged by JazzRoc, was ever established during the Cold War. In fact any attempt to produce such a system for the UK Armed Forces was abandoned in the mid-‘70s. The then preferred BW detector (the US Army’s XM19) proved to be inefficient and extremely difficult to use, and its development was later abandoned by the US in 1983.

It was also realised in the mid-70's that warning the public of a BW attack was proving to be difficult, as the existing warning siren system could not be adapted to alert the public of a BW attack.

As HMG policy was not to issue the general public with respirators, even if a working UK BW detection/warning/identification system had been set up, one still faced the question posed by Rex Watson (Director of Porton Down): “Even if such an attack could be detected, and even if everyone had a gas mask, how could you warn 50 million people at three in the morning?”

Quote:To know also that the material was at first cast out to sea, then brought inland, mainly because the scientists had a hard job finding anything they had dropped.

?

Quote:To know also that the "means of distribution" were a barge, some vans on country roads, and a lone Canberra bomber based at Pyestock, Hants, dribbling an almost invisible mist from a height of 2000 feet.

By “means of distribution” I assume that JazzRoc means the source which sprayed the BW stimulants (a BW simulant is a supposedly harmless substance which mimics particular properties of real BW agents, such as size. The mean particle size of the BW stimulants sprayed in the MOD field trials were between 1-5 microns – a size which evades the body’s natural defences and penetrates to the deepest part of the lung, the alveoli).

Unfortunately, JazzRoc’s very limited list (barge?) tends to give a misleading impression of the true extent of these public area experiments. The spray-sources for the majority of these BW field trials were ships, aircraft, and road vehicles, including:

Devon aircraft;
Valetta aircraft;
Hastings aircraft;
Varsity aircraft;
Incinerator chimney, AERE Harwell;
the National Gas Turbine Establishment (NGTE) Canberra aircraft WH657 (interestingly, the NGTE designed and constructed one of the types of spray-heads used in the field trials), and more importantly;
the UK’s clandestine BW research aircraft – the specially converted dual-use Canberra aircraft (WV787);
converted Land Rovers (static and mobile);
a converted 1 ton Morris van;
HMS GRAFTON;
HMS BLACKPOOL;
Experimental Trials Vessel (ETV) ICEWHALE;
Experimental Trials Vessel (ETV) WHIMBREL;
Fleet Tender (FT) COCKCHAFER
A hand-held ‘sabotage’ spray device (the May Spray)
A ‘face-powder’ compact.

A remarkable film of the National Gas Turbine Establishment (NGTE) Canberra WH6657 spraying a bacterial suspension over the Porton Range and surrounding countryside has been declassified (see below). If one looks closely you might find that it is doing more than ‘dribbling a fine mist’ – the original certainly shows this to be the case.

[video=googlevideo]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7312284504615301980#[/video]

Quote:... The only difference was that the scientists bred them first so that they were uniquely identifiable, using a marker, and then KILLED THEM.

While a killed and primulin–stained bacteria (Klebsiella aerogenes) was sprayed in a small number of field trials (19 in total), the most commonly used bacteria in Porton’s public area field trials were live E.coli MRE162 and live Bacillus globigii (BG aka Bacillus subtilis var niger) (124 and rising), neither of which were ever marked prior to spraying.

Quote:Late in the program they used UNKILLED bacteria because it had finally sunk in that they weren't at all dangerous.

Porton Down were always planning to spray massive quantities of live bacteria in their field trials (not late in the program as incorrectly stated, but more nearer the beginning) – the reason was not, as JazzRoc asserts, ‘because it had finally sunk in that they weren't at all dangerous’, but because it was obviously the only way to investigate the viability of bacteria after long-distance travel, downwind of source.

In 1999, Prof Brian Spratt FRS produced his MOD commissioned review of the so-called Dorset Defence field trials. His report states-

“It is therefore considered possible that a strain of E. Coli such as MRE162, which is unlikely to cause diarrhoea on ingestion, may on inhalation be able to initiate a blood or chest infection in a small number of highly susceptible individuals’.

It is of interest to note that after the arrival of a new Director of MRE Porton Down, who instigated a new safety regime, E. Coli MRE162 ceased to be sprayed in open-air or public area field trials.

Bacillus globigii is now considered to be a pathogen, capable of causing disease in humans. A recent report produced for the US National Academies of Science Institute of Medicine states:

“BG is now considered a pathogen for humans. Most infections are associated with the experience of invasive trauma (e.g. catheters, surgery) and/or a debilitates health state, thus it is often encountered as a nosocomial pathogen. BG is also a well-known cause of food poisoning, resulting in diarrhea and vomiting. Infections are rarely known to be
fatal, although fatal food poisoning has been reported. Ocular infections, bacteremia, sepsis/septicemia, ventriculitis, peritonitis are the reported types of infection and they are usually treated with antibiotics. Cases of long-term persistence or recurrence, or of extended latency have not been found.”
[source: HEALTH EFFECTS OF PROJECT SHAD BIOLOGICAL AGENT: BACILLUS GLOBIGII]

“weren’t at all dangerous” ?

And finally...

Quote:REAL FACT 1: By the end of the fifties Britain and the US were threatened by a giant stock of powerful ICBMs - estimated at the time to be 12,000 - and at least 3,000 of them were topped up with anthrax/nerve agents.

By the end of the fifties? Really?

Quote:REAL FACT 3: The materials used were HARMLESS and UBIQUITOUS (look it up, whatsaface). The ZCS was chemically unpleasant, but used only in sufficient quantities (and diffused over very wide areas) to present minimal risk to individuals, yet provide a measure of distribution and spread. Civil defense workers and analysts would have faced a greater danger than members of the public, by powers of ten.

Really? Harmless?

We’ve already established that the E. Coli MRE162 and Bacillus globigii used in the field trials weren’t ‘harmless’, and even Porton Down were aware at the time that ZnCds presented a serious health hazard – Porton spray operators wore respirators, overalls, elbow-length neoprene gloves and surgeons caps.

So harmless? Nah.

Quote:...but used only in sufficient quantities (and diffused over very wide areas) to present minimal risk to individuals.

Sounds reasonable. If only it were true.

On many occasions, CDEE Porton Down scientists repeatedly sprayed large amounts of ZnCds from a slow moving vehicle (either Land Rover or their clandestine spray vehicle – a converted 1 ton Morris van) as it travelled along public roads. [Porton Note No 218; Porton Technical Paper No 885]

Obviously anyone within close proximity to the spray vehicles (pedestrians, residents in their homes, shops, other road users) were exposed to high levels of ZCds – each particle of which was manufactured to be of a size which would penetrate the lungs. During the Bedfordshire field trials, up to three such field trials occurred in a single day.

Doesn't sound much like a minimal risk to me.


icewhale

Hello, Icewhale. Round 2:

The widespread MOD/CDEE/MRE Porton Down Biological Warfare field trials conducted between 1940-1976 did not result in the establishment of a UK BW detection/warning/identification system. So JazzRoc is incorrect in deducing that the MOD’s actions probably ensured the safety of ‘EVERYONE in Britain from attack by Soviet ICBMs carrying anthrax and nerve gas’.
Wrong cause - wrong effect. I never suggested a system was created. The Cold War thawed.

No UK BW detection/warning/identification system, as envisaged by JazzRoc
I didn't envisage it. I suggested that it would be needed to be worked out by experiment. What it would be would be determined by what was revealed by experiment.

The mean particle size of the BW stimulants sprayed in the MOD field trials were between 1-5 microns – a size which evades the body’s natural defences
I don't think it did under the circumstances. Wasn't it mixed with water to be sprayed?
All microparticulates become bound to water droplets. These CAN'T "evade the body’s natural defences".

If one looks closely you might find that it is doing more than ‘dribbling a fine mist’ – the original certainly shows this to be the case.
ROFL. Yeah, sure. I thought MY eyes were bad!

neither of which were ever marked prior to spraying
That makes no sense. They had to know the boundaries... ...unless there were really no similar ambient bacteria, and that defies reason.

it was obviously the only way to investigate the viability of bacteria after long-distance travel, downwind of source.
Couldn't that have been done just the once? And, for that matter, elsewhere?

Prof Brian Spratt: “It is therefore considered possible that MRE162, which is unlikely to cause diarrhoea on ingestion, may on inhalation be able to initiate a blood or chest infection in a small number of highly susceptible individuals’. It is of interest to note that after the arrival of a new Director of MRE Porton Down, who instigated a new safety regime, E. Coli MRE162 ceased to be sprayed in open-air or public area field trials.
That's science all over. Check and recheck. Uncover the mystery. Right the wrong. They dealt with a mistake.

Bacillus globigii is now considered to be a pathogen
Especially when introduced with a scalpel, it seems. See the previous answer.

“weren’t at all dangerous”? Rolleyes
Unless when introduced with a scalpel, it seems. As far as I know the Russians didn't include scalpels in their rockets. Those bacteria are to be found on the end of your lengthening nose.

By the end of the fifties? Really? Huh
While the Americans were setting fire to their launching pads the Russians were stocking up.

Really? Harmless? So harmless? Nah. Nono.
I was working with cadmium-plated steel in the sixties. It was known to be poisonous, and we took care to keep out of physical contact with it. But that's a concentrated scenario, and NOT the HOMEOPATHIC dilutions of the test scenario.

Sounds reasonable. If only it were true. On many occasions, CDEE Porton Down scientists repeatedly sprayed large amounts of ZnCds from a slow moving vehicle (either Land Rover or their clandestine spray vehicle – a converted 1 ton Morris van) as it travelled along public roads. [Porton Note No 218; Porton Technical Paper No 885]. Obviously anyone within close proximity to the spray vehicles (pedestrians, residents in their homes, shops, other road users) were exposed to high levels of ZCds – each particle of which was manufactured to be of a size which would penetrate the lungs. During the Bedfordshire field trials, up to three such field trials occurred in a single day. Doesn't sound much like a minimal risk to me.
Well there's always one way to check, isn't there? WERE there any casualties? Produce a LIST, show me a CLUSTER. Otherwise, what sense underlies your argument?

(03-28-2011 01:02 AM)JazzRoc Wrote: [ -> ]Hello, Icewhale. Round 2:

DING DING!

Quote:The widespread MOD/CDEE/MRE Porton Down Biological Warfare field trials conducted between 1940-1976 did not result in the establishment of a UK BW detection/warning/identification system. So JazzRoc is incorrect in deducing that the MOD’s actions probably ensured the safety of ‘EVERYONE in Britain from attack by Soviet ICBMs carrying anthrax and nerve gas’.

Wrong cause - wrong effect. I never suggested a system was created. The Cold War thawed.

Er... you originally said that you knew “Enough to know that the MOD’s actions were logical and necessary, probably ensuring the safety of EVERYONE in Britain from attack by Soviet ICBMs carrying anthrax and nerve gas”.

If, by making this statement, you were not referring to the MOD’s actions leading to the establishment of a BW warning/detection system, could you explain why you think the MOD’s actions probably ensured the safety of EVERYONE in Britain from attack by Soviet ICBMs carrying anthrax and nerve gas?

Quote:No UK BW detection/warning/identification system, as envisaged by JazzRoc

I didn't envisage it. I suggested that it would be needed to be worked out by experiment. What it would be would be determined by what was revealed by experiment.

Whatever JazzRoc.

Just as long as you realise that Porton Down’s numerous public area BW experiments did not result in the setting up of any BW warning/Detection/Identification system during the Cold War.

Quote:The mean particle size of the BW stimulants sprayed in the MOD field trials were between 1-5 microns – a size which evades the body’s natural defences

I don't think it did under the circumstances. Wasn't it mixed with water to be sprayed?
All microparticulates become bound to water droplets. These CAN'T "evade the body’s natural defences".

Well no surprise there then, you think quite a few things which later prove to be incorrect. Apart from the fact that Porton had already proved that sprayed water particles dry quite rapidly after spraying, why on earth would you think that a water droplet couldn’t penetrate the trachea and the deepest part of the lungs?

Quote:
If one looks closely you might find that it is doing more than ‘dribbling a fine mist’ – the original certainly shows this to be the case.

ROFL. Yeah, sure. I thought MY eyes were bad!

Well I did say that the original shows this more clearly.

Admittedly, the National Gas Turbine Establishment designed spray-head left a lot to be desired (it appears that the NGTE couldn’t get the hang of how to produce small enough BW stimulant droplets), but the Double Impact Spray and the US Rake very definitely produced a much bigger effect than ‘dribbling a fine mist’.

Quote:neither of which were ever marked prior to spraying

That makes no sense. They had to know the boundaries... ...unless there were really no similar ambient bacteria, and that defies reason.

You’ve apparently forgotten that I’ve explained all of this to you before.

The normal procedure for each public area BW field trial, as conducted in the Lyme Bay Trials series, was as follows.

Massive quantities of a suspension of two types of live bacteria were sprayed by four spray-heads attached to the stern of ETV ICEWHALE. Each spray-head was made up of 11 spray-nozzles which were designed to disseminate biological particles.

The resulting huge bacterial cloud was then carried onshore by the wind and was sampled at distances up to 40-50 miles inland by teams of mobile Porton scientists, using a variety of sampling equipment.

Samples were carefully collected and plated out on Tryptome agar petri dishes which were then transferred to the hot room. When the bacteria had grown into visible colonies, the dishes were removed from the hot room and each colony of E. coli counted. The numbers were logged, and from them, the dose and viability of E. coli of each size fraction, in each of the clouds, and at each sampling station was calculated.

Representative colonies of E. coli were taken, cultured and examined using anti-sera to confirm the identity of the particles collected.

Quote:it was obviously the only way to investigate the viability of bacteria after long-distance travel, downwind of source.

Couldn't that have been done just the once? And, for that matter, elsewhere?

I agree, the live bacteria field trials could have been conducted on the vast Canadian BW range at Suffield. There was no real reason that they had to be conducted in the UK, apart from cost.

Unfortunately, conducting just the one viability trial would have been scientifically unsound. Plus they wished to study the effects of viability after differing distances of travel downwind, and in later filed trials, to investigate the effectiveness of their BW agent ‘coating’ – S3, which would ensure the survival of live bacteria sprayed during daylight hours.

Quote:Prof Brian Spratt: “It is therefore considered possible that MRE162, which is unlikely to cause diarrhoea on ingestion, may on inhalation be able to initiate a blood or chest infection in a small number of highly susceptible individuals’. It is of interest to note that after the arrival of a new Director of MRE Porton Down, who instigated a new safety regime, E. Coli MRE162 ceased to be sprayed in open-air or public area field trials.

That's science all over. Check and recheck. Uncover the mystery. Right the wrong. They dealt with a mistake.

Apparently scientific concerns about the wisdom of spraying massive amounts of E. Coli MRE162 in populated areas had arisen long before – it wasn’t specific scientific results which changed the policy; this was brought about by a change of Director of MRE Porton Down, unfortunately after the last of the large area Lyme Bay Trials.

Quote:Bacillus globigii is now considered to be a pathogen

Especially when introduced with a scalpel, it seems. See the previous answer.


“weren’t at all dangerous”? Rolleyes

Unless when introduced with a scalpel, it seems. As far as I know the Russians didn't include scalpels in their rockets. Those bacteria are to be found on the end of your lengthening nose.

What’s with the ‘lengthening nose’ jibe, JazzRoc – desperate?

A scalpel? Thats being a tad selective isn’t it, even for your standards?

The report not only mentions that ‘most infections are associated with the experience of invasive trauma (e.g. catheters, surgery)’ but, ‘also those with a debilitating illness’.

So that leaves a large proportion of hospital patients at risk of infection should a massive cloud of BG come their way. The report also mentions, and you chose to omit, that BG is a well-known cause of food poisoning.

Well known, JazzRoc!

Still think the bacteria ‘weren’t at all dangerous’, Pinocchio?

And why do you keep banging on about ICBM being the Sovs favourite method of delivery?

Even as far back as 1963, it was assumed by HMG that a Sov BW attack on the UK would be conducted by a low flying aircraft over the sea, or by a ‘trawler’ sailing down the English Channel. The Sovs were known to be fully aware of the effectiveness of a Large Area Coverage concept BW attack – a method which is far more effective (and much cheaper) than the mythical BW ICBM, produced by a Sov defector eager to please his new bosses.

Quote:By the end of the fifties? Really? Huh

Possibly, but 12,000? Really?

While the Americans were setting fire to their launching pads the Russians were stocking up.

I was under the impression that in the end of the fifties, the number of deployed Sov ICBMs was in single figures, not your huge figure of 12,000!

Can you show me where you got the figure of 12,000 ICBMs or did you pluck it out of the air?

Quote:Really? Harmless? So harmless? Nah. Nono.

I was working with cadmium-plated steel in the sixties. It was known to be poisonous, and we took care to keep out of physical contact with it. But that's a concentrated scenario, and NOT the HOMEOPATHIC dilutions of the test scenario.

Why on earth do you continue to assume that people weren’t exposed to a concentrated scenario?

Sometimes even the aircraft delivered ZnCds spray trials held the occasional surprise.





Unfortunately the TV report fails to mention that Porton stopped detailed sampling at the Dorchester station before the whole cloud had arrived. Highly scientific!

Quote:Sounds reasonable. If only it were true. On many occasions, CDEE Porton Down scientists repeatedly sprayed large amounts of ZnCds from a slow moving vehicle (either Land Rover or their clandestine spray vehicle – a converted 1 ton Morris van) as it travelled along public roads. [Porton Note No 218; Porton Technical Paper No 885]. Obviously anyone within close proximity to the spray vehicles (pedestrians, residents in their homes, shops, other road users) were exposed to high levels of ZCds – each particle of which was manufactured to be of a size which would penetrate the lungs. During the Bedfordshire field trials, up to three such field trials occurred in a single day. Doesn't sound much like a minimal risk to me.

Well there's always one way to check, isn't there? WERE there any casualties? Produce a LIST, show me a CLUSTER. Otherwise, what sense underlies your argument?

Ah, the classic JazzRoc defence.

Instead of having the good grace to admit your assertion that ‘...but used only in sufficient quantities (and diffused over very wide areas) to present minimal risk to individuals.’, had been proved wrong; you chuck your teddy out of the pram and demand as proof, an epidemiological survey of a population who were unknowingly exposed to classified Government experiments conducted nearly 50 years ago?

Don’t be so fatuous, JazzRoc.

Unlike you, I find the repeated spraying a large aerosol of a hazardous compound in close proximity to the general public is a real cause for concern – especially when the material was designed to be of a particle size which would penetrate the deepest part of the lungs.


icewhale

could you explain why you think the MOD’s actions probably ensured the safety of EVERYONE in Britain from attack by Soviet ICBMs carrying anthrax and nerve gas?
It's the bit you always miss out.
The secret services were permeated with soviet sympathizers. They soon got to hear of the trials, and word made it back to Moscow that they were making, to all intents and purposes, a very thorough job of finding out how to cope with such attacks. And make them.
This gave the Soviets a reducing window of success, reducing from the time of the initial trials, with an increasing risk of a damaging counterstrike made all the more effective by the information garnered by the trials. The soviets' knowledge of these "secret" trials deterred them from ever employing such measures, but NOT from building them - just in case.
How do I know?

Whatever JazzRoc. Just as long as you realise
No - just as long as you realise that TIMES CHANGED. Who would have predicted Berlin and South Africa and partial weapons decommissioning? Certainly not me.

Porton had already proved that sprayed water particles dry quite rapidly after spraying, why on earth would you think that a water droplet couldn’t penetrate the trachea and the deepest part of the lungs?
Because (and I find myself repeating this yet again) particles will NOT fall through moist air without centering themselves within droplets of water, and Britain has moist air. The particles would then become subject to the body's MANY processes for expelling them. You should be wondering how they ever get into a position to penetrate. Notice that I am NOT arguing that they don't penetrate when they get there, which you seem to like insisting.
When they DO get there, and they are actually alive, what are they, and what do they face?
Well, they are WEAK pathogens. The white blood cells of every one of us has their number. They get killed. It's what happens to bacteria commonly found on the end of your (ever-growing) nose. If they fall inside, THEY DIE.
Only the weak and dying might be more rapidly dispatched by ingesting significant quantities of such materials, especially if introduced beneath the skin.

the original certainly shows this to be the case
Knowing what your game is, I will not take your word for that.

NGTE couldn’t get the hang of how to produce small enough BW stimulant droplets), but the Double Impact Spray and the US Rake very definitely produced a much bigger effect than ‘dribbling a fine mist’.
So you say. (Whistles.)

Representative colonies of E. coli were taken, cultured and examined using anti-sera to confirm the identity of the particles collected.
(Taps fingers.)

conducting just the one viability trial would have been scientifically unsound. Plus they wished to study the effects of viability after differing distances of travel downwind, and in later filed trials, to investigate the effectiveness of their BW agent ‘coating’ – S3, which would ensure the survival of live bacteria sprayed during daylight hours.
How very scientific of them. It's a vital, vital consideration, isn't it, to guarantee the longevity of your counterstrike materials?

Apparently scientific concerns about the wisdom of spraying massive amounts of E. Coli MRE162 in populated areas had arisen long before – it wasn’t specific scientific results which changed the policy; this was brought about by a change of Director of MRE Porton Down, unfortunately after the last of the large area Lyme Bay Trials.
He brought those concerns into the project. As I said before, it's "science". Science is concerned with accuracy and efficiency. It looks like it improved itself for the reasons you have indicated.

What’s with the ‘lengthening nose’ jibe, JazzRoc – desperate? Still think the bacteria ‘weren’t at all dangerous’, Pinocchio? Big Grin
See above. Those bacteria will be found ON YOUR NOSE.
The same materials are freely exchanged TWICE on a daily basis by every two hundred passengers in every carriage on every tube train in London. They will be freely exchanging ALL the types of bacteria used in those trials. Some may well have died as a consequence, but which in particular? Hasn't the signal disappeared within the noise?
You are apparently "making a living" on the ignorance of your readers. Rather that make them aware of TRUE FACTS, you use MYSTERY to inspire FEAR, further reducing your reader's ability to think. It isn't a pretty sight.

And why do you keep banging on about ICBM being the Sovs favourite method of delivery?
TWENTY MINUTES warning time.

method which is far more effective (and much cheaper)
LOL. And slower, and detectable, and sterilizable. Not so detectable if you have thousands of miles of borders and widely-spaced targets, though. Britain's "deterrence" would probably have involved pack mules...

Can you show me where you got the figure of 12,000 ICBMs or did you pluck it out of the air?
Freeman Dyson. In return I'll ask you to source: "mythical BW ICBM, produced by a Sov defector eager to please his new bosses", thanks.

Why on earth do you continue to assume that people weren’t exposed to a concentrated scenario?
Well there's always one way to check, isn't there?

Ah, the classic JazzRoc defence.
If you were brighter, you'd know it to be an ATTACK. WERE there any casualties? Produce a LIST, show me a CLUSTER. Otherwise, what sense underlies your argument?

Instead of having the good grace to admit your assertion that ‘...but used only in sufficient quantities (and diffused over very wide areas) to present minimal risk to individuals.’, had been proved wrong; you chuck your teddy out of the pram and demand as proof, an epidemiological survey of a population who were unknowingly exposed to classified Government experiments conducted nearly 50 years ago?
"Proved wrong"? What? WERE there any casualties? Produce a LIST, show me a CLUSTER. Otherwise, what sense underlies your argument?

Don’t be so fatuous, JazzRoc. Nono
It is YOU that's playing a game here. It is YOU that is ignoring the history of the event, concealing the true nature of the pathogens, playing down the absence of casualty figures, leaping through informational gaps to introduce new conspiracy theories. You would have done better to merely report your findings, for your opinions aren't worth a damn.

Unlike you, I find the repeated spraying a large aerosol of a hazardous compound in close proximity to the general public is a real cause for concern – especially when the material was designed to be of a particle size which would penetrate the deepest part of the lungs.
I am pretty fed up with your ad hominems and sly hints. It WOULD be a cause for concern if it happened NOW, but you have by no means proved it happened even THEN.

I wouldn't want to defend the NGTE just because I worked there. It had the most loathsome management (which I detested), and went out of business within the decade. It also had a skilled workforce and the finest engineering I have ever seen, some wrought upon Victorian machinery.

By your efforts you have turned what would have been a service (the history of the trials) into its opposite - BALONEY. What's your motivation? Life too boring?





"they demonstrated, in a striking way, the feasibility of small scale biological warfare. An appreciable dose of viable bacteria was achieved over an area greater than 1,000 square miles by the release of only 120 gallons of suspension"
Was a threat of greater significance to the Soviets (with their apparently great advantage of dispersal) than the Brits, who would be overrun immediately anyway. Deterrence.

The test of the pudding is in the eating. Did it taste nice? (a) NO GERM WAR*. (b) No collateral damage**. Yes, very sweet indeed...

*So far.
**Except for you and your ilk.

Olyhay UckFay, you're still trying to flog this horse back to life JR? Give it up. The MSM is replete with admissions that meteo-engineering is being contempleted. IOW, when the gov says "we're considering it" it's post facto.

I wouldn't drag that Shermer kike into it either. I've read a book of his (courtesy of foobaz on tracker) re: the holocaust. The dude couldn't even refute David Cole and Bradley Smith on the Phil Donahue show. He's a complete fucking idiot who glories in thinking he's actually debunking things.

After reading about the gov's new "sock puppet" software to manage multiple ficticious online personalities, I have to wonder if you're even a real person anymore JR.

(04-03-2011 06:45 AM)Mike_Smith Wrote: [ -> ]Olyhay UckFay, you're still trying to flog this horse back to life JR?

I was responding to the illustrious "Icewhale's" tripe.

Quote:Give it up.

What, logic?

Quote:The MSM is replete with admissions that meteo-engineering is being contempleted.

Contemplated. There's a patent for a hotel on the Moon. Go visit.

Quote:IOW, when the gov says "we're considering it" it's post facto.

And your evidence for that is?

Quote:I wouldn't drag that Shermer kike into it either. I've read a book of his (courtesy of foobaz on tracker) re: the holocaust. The dude couldn't even refute David Cole and Bradley Smith on the Phil Donahue show. He's a complete fucking idiot who glories in thinking he's actually debunking things.

Gosh, you're right. All that time I was LISTENING to his REASONING, when instead I should have taken notice of your ad hom.

Quote:After reading about the gov's new "sock puppet" software to manage multiple ficticious online personalities, I have to wonder if you're even a real person anymore JR.

Thanks. You've been thanked. Now, who the fuck are you? Apart from "Mike_Smith", that is, and why should that matter?

Surely it's PHYSICAL EVIDENCE and REASONED LOGIC that count? And by that test you've brought nothing whatsoever to this discussion.